Points vs. Pertronix

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Guys (and any Gals that may be watching), I separated this into it's own thread because we strayed far from the OP's original questions into a debate. Hopefully I didn't miss any posts. I tried to leave posts in the OP's thread that were only pertinent to that thread and not to side one way or another. Having said that, I'm human and may have missed something. Cheers.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Ahh, but the use electronic components, transistors, etc. therefore can be termed electronic.

The testing was never done with publishing in mind and so was not set up that way. It was a group of Techs that had this and other debates over many years who wanted to get the honest information, not biased. These tests were conducted in as even and equitable conditions as possible. No, it wasn't in a climate controlled laboratory, but every effort was made with many different vehicles all in excellent mechanical condition using hundreds of thousands of dollars of test equipment. The experience these folks had was at least 400 years worth of cumulative experience.

Getting real world here, testing aside, how many people will be installing these components, whether points or electronic ignition in a vehicle using NOS parts. Very few I imagine....

Another thing to consider regarding things being posted, that are unpublished and other folks on here are unlikely to find elsewhere (although they may). I've built custom Dana/Spicer axles for 17 years. Much of what I know was learned from mistakes, from other people and then tried myself, etc. Because this information is unpublished so can't be substantiated by other people should I not try to help someone with a question on this or other boards regarding this?

For myself, I'm going to stick to what I know, have seen with my own eyes, have smelt, touched, etc. Not just a theories. Theories are great, a wonderful starting point, but do not always coincide with reality.


Regarding carrying extra points. Didn't miss the point at all. Points are simply cheaper and are easy to carry.

Not all vehicles that use electronic ignition are complex. The 231 Buick V-6 in my '59-5 is mechanical everything but HEI. Not complex at all if you understand how it works. Not tied in with any other engine management system.

I agree that manufacturers and sellers should advertise accurately and honestly, but that's not always the case unfortunately.

This is the last I'm going to post on this. Other people are welcome to continue on but please keep it respectful all.

 

I'll throw in my 2 cents here. I have used the Pertronix in 2 different vehicles-my Jeep and a Ford truck with a 390. Also, in the late 80's and most of the 90's I worked at a local speed shop which was a Pertronix distributor. I've sold a ton of those things and always had good feedback from customers. On my own vehicles, they perform well and have been reliable. On my Jeep :v6: I had a Prestolite distributor which I had to change out to the Delco to install the Pertronix. I bought a reman Delco dist, installed it, and ran it with the points, then switched to the Pertronix. It made a small, but noticable, improvement in performance and driveability. I've never done any actual testing-this is just seat of the pants observation, but I've been a satisfied Pertronix user for over 15 years now.

 

Note: the quote above is as copied and pasted from the web dictionary. I have not changed it's format or layout.

Using the definition you prefer and is published in most dictionarys then the flow of electrons in the Willy F134 since it's inception in the late 1940's is electronics. Using the dictionary definition makes the Pertronics simply another electronic version of Kettering ignition since base on the dictionary definition the Kettering's flow of electrons is clearly an electronic circuit. This level of discussion was never my intent and is really not even necessary. Most folks here clearly see that this is like watching two attorneys bend the English language to meet their legal interpretations. My point is that when a service manual differentiates between an early Kettering ignition system and a modern computerized system they generally name the Kettering standard ignition system and the computerized stuff electronic ignition. Most lay persons use this division of the terms to understand which system they have. Advertising the Pertronix as an Electronic Ignition is very misleading to the average truck owner and that has been the thrust of my posts.

This is called personal testimony and is fine when you are the lead technician in the learning process you wish to share and you are posting detailed instructions with specific specifications to be used.

When you are one of boys toying with a test set and notice some interesting behaviors then why not share those observations for what they are. Unsubstantiated observations that may or may not be accurate and correct or even specifically applicable to the engine in question. To offer them as the Gospel on a topic is again very misleading.

I agree completely and I am doing the same myself. I have owned and operated quite a few 134 powered jeeps since 1972 and I have run them with and without the Pertronix Kits and I see no measurable performance increase with either over the other. Note I have remained specific to the Willys 134 in all my post on this topic.

HEI normally adapted to the early GM V6's is simply a point replacement system with the coil built into the distributor. The computer controls and module controlled timing didn't come in till 1978 and those I have not seen transplanted to CJ5's with Dauntless V6's. Plain speaking the HEI is a Pertronics with integral coil.

That's enough repetitive publishing for today.

 

Having installed countless Pertronix units, to say there is no performance advantage is incorrect and sloppy reporting. Point systems degrade the moment current travels through the primary circuit and passes past the contacts on the points. The degrade never stops. An electronic ignition does not degrade in this way and will react the same throughout its life cycle. I don't see how you can say that performance isn't effected. I promise you this, because I have seen it on every install I have done, when you start the vehicle it will fire much sooner than it ever did with a points system. Next, a points system used 6-9 V as its primary circuit voltage. This is fact and a design element of a points system. With an electronic ignition you can run a full 12V through the primary circuit. That is at least a 33% increase in primary voltage which is directly proportional the output on the secondary circuit of the ignition system. I again fail to see how you can say this is not a performance gain?? Come on, when making a bold statement, know the facts. There are people here and everywhere that read things and think its correct. Your statement is not correct at all.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

I gotta keep tellin myself its not"just a turtle" to some people

 

I told this story on another topic but when I put the Pertronix conversion in my stock distributor I first marked the distributor base and intake manifold thinking I could slap it right back in and not have to fiddle with timing. So I do the conversion, drop the distributor back in, line the marks back up and when I try to start the engine it spins over until the first cylinder hit its ignition point and it stopped the starter right there. I had to retard timing from where it was so the starter could spin the engine over. That to me is a pretty clear indication that spark energy was increased, though granted this is a higher compression 327 not a 134.

 

I had to do the same thing, when I did the same conversion on the 302 Ford that used to be in my street rod, I had to retard it roughly 3-4 degrees from where it had been with the points. I don't know if it made any more horsepower/torque, but it sure started easier, and I rather enjoy not having to worry about maintaining the points. Granted, this was on a street rig, so nowhere near the abuse an off-road rig takes, but that module was in that engine for 4 years, and about 40,000 miles, and the distributor has now been in my brothers Mustang for almost 3, and he's never touched it. I never even bothered carrying a spare pertronix unit, or the old points and condenser.

 

This is interesting discussion and highly charged for some reason. Here is some information to show why the Pertronix is a performance improvement. Discussion was about coils and triggering tachs and I cut and pasted relevent info. Also seems dwell is higher with ignitor which equals better performance. My Butt-o-meter favors the Pertronix as well. And I have run both for extended period of time in Nissan 6 cylinders. Nomex suit donned... Link to orignial post follows.


With a breaker point system, the wave form present at the negative coil terminal rises rather rapidly as the points close, reaching a sort of rounded peak as the points remain closed for a period and then have a tapered tail as the points open and the current is broken (combined with the effect of the condenser). In the case of the Pertronix Ignitor, the wave form is controlled by the electronics in concert with a capacitor. The wave form has a characteristic which includes a very sharp rise, a level plateau of 10 to 15 milliseconds (which duplicates the closed points) and a exponentially tapering tail. With the ignitor, the voltage never is allowed to completely drop to zero. Instead it hits a low of around 1.6 volts and rises to a high or around 400 volts. This waveform combined with these voltages causes the coil primary windings to saturate quickly and fully... much more so than breaker-points. This is why the Ignitor is capable of assisting the coil in delivering much higher than normal voltage output (if needed).

http://www.digest.net/ihc/archive/v6/msg01262.html

 

And to add some more ( not trying to make this an class . . but I did teach Auto for 20 years ) . . coil output voltage is often misunderstood. If a coil is capable of putting out 5KV, 20KV, 40KV or even 60KV . . doesn't mean it will do that. The saturation of the magnetic field happens until the voltage is generated that will arc between the electrodes of the spark plug. If 5KV will do it, that's what will be produced. But because of combustion pressures, it takes much more voltage than in the outside air, we need higher voltages available. So having a high output from your coil is insurance to make sure the arc will happen., It also allows you to run a wider gap which helps with combustion. But again, it takes more voltage to arc, thus the higher output coil.

 

I've got most of a Delco distributor I'd donate to the cause. Don't have a cap and rotor for it, not sure if it's worn out or not, as I've never had it in an engine....

That's for a dauntless, I suppose that would be good info. I honestly can't recall if this whole thread got started over an F134 or Dauntless.....

 

Yeah, I just thought about that as I was posting =]