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Bodywork?

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by mruta, Nov 5, 2004.

  1. Nov 5, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Bodywork? Picture added!

    I've got my A1 torn down to little more than a bare tub on the frame. I think I've talked myself into trying my hand at bodywork this weekend. I need to cut out and weld in a patch where I have some rust on the passenger side.

    After I cut out the bad part, should I cut a patch panel to fit as exactly as possible and butt weld it to the body? A friend suggested that I make a patch bigger than the cutout and rivet it to the back of the original panel so I can then weld it in place. I know this would work but it seems like I'd have to use a lot of bondo to fill it. What do you guys think?

    Please keep in mind I have NEVER done any bodywork before but I am anxious to learn...

    Thanks!
     
  2. Nov 5, 2004
    Russell

    Russell New Member

    Greensboro, NC
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    35
    When I did my body work, inmost cases I cut the new metal to fit as closely inside the hole as possible with about 1/8 inch clearance all around. You can clamp it in place and hit a couple spots with the MIG welder or what ever suitable welder you have.

    I then used the MIG to fill the joint all around. Then I used a grinder to take the weld down to level. After that it is a maybe a little body putty if required and then prime and paint. Be sure to do something with the back of the weld too. Obviously if you can see it, you ought to clean it up with the grinder for appearance purposes, etc. If it is under the fender or rear quarter, etc, be sure to coat the whole area with something like POR15 or other suitable rust inhibitor/stopper/protector. People swear by both POR15 and the Eastwood product, which I have not used yet. Lots of discussion on both in the forum.

    My Jeep was done this way all over....floor, sides, fenders and I made the entire rear of the jeep that way. I just kept enough of the unrusted parts to have pieces to hang the new metal from.
     
  3. Nov 5, 2004
    Russell

    Russell New Member

    Greensboro, NC
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
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    35
    Here is a before and after. Be sure to take all old bondo out. This hole in mine had been covered by about a gallon of bondo!
     
  4. Nov 5, 2004
    mb82

    mb82 I feel great!

    Charlottesville Va
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,706
    what i did for all my body work ( trust me it was/still is alot) was i got a flanging tool from JCW ( vicegrips with a different head) and i flanged the old body( thinner metal easier to flange) making a depression that was the same depth as the new metal so i could have a small crack to fill with my welder. filled in the crack then ground the extra down. this was fairly effective, it took awhile and my hands now are very strong from using the flanging tool for 2 months strait.
     
  5. Nov 5, 2004
    double R

    double R Member

    Reseda, CA
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    332
    i have done some patching on my cj...and i cut the patch exactly the same shape as the cutout..a lot of test fitting and then grinding...but once in a while i would cut out a patch that just fit perfectly...what i did was trace the outline of the cut out onto the new sheet metal...once in a while i would cut an oversized patch, lay it over the cut and then trace the outline with a scriber...of course, try to make the patch as close as possible to the cut out but i think a gap of 1/16 between the patch and the body should work fine...

    another thing is to try to make your cutouts with the simplest geometry as possible...if you have a round rusted out hole, it might be easier to cut a square around it...

    that was my first attempt at body work ever in my life and i'm really happy with the results...i wish i could post pics but im studying abroad right now and don't have access to my images or my CJ :(...
     
  6. Nov 5, 2004
    Russell

    Russell New Member

    Greensboro, NC
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
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    35
    Ditto for me everything "Double R" said above - exactly what I did too.
     
  7. Nov 5, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Did either of you guys experience a lot of warping when welding? And did you need a lot of bondo? Ideally, it would be nice to have zero filler in the body but I know some is going to be necessary...


    PIC!!!!!
     
  8. Nov 5, 2004
    JohnyJeep

    JohnyJeep BLOWING A XING NEAR U@2AM

    Beautiful Cody WY
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
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    513
    If you have the money I would invest in the pneumatic flanging tool that harbor freight sells. It's not very expensive. Like Jeff said you flange the metal patch and when you put it in place in your cutout it will be almost flush. Plus the flange on the backside helps to control warpage of the surrounding metal. If your patch is in an area where there is a support (like the door area) then you will have to butt weld it.

    I used 16 gauge metal for my patches that were butt welded, because it was a little thicker to prevent warpage. I used 18 gauge for my flanged patches. Also when your welding in the patches just weld a little at a time (like 1" increments). Allow the metal to cool off, then weld on the opposite side. Just keep doing this alternating pattern till you have welded the patch all the way around. This should keep warpage to a minimum. If you go to a welding supply they might have something called heat fence. You use this around the surrounding metal where your not welding and it actually absorbs some of the heat. I've used it and it works good.

    As far as bondo goes. Heck don't worry about it. All old Jeeps must have bondo. :D With the new technology out now Bondo shouldn't get the bad rap it used to get. Done right it will last a long long time.

    Good luck and "Just Do It"
     
  9. Nov 5, 2004
    Russell

    Russell New Member

    Greensboro, NC
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    35
    Some heat warpage may happen but the above recommendations will lessen it. Also, I agree that bodo is not bad. Heck, new cars have bondo in them!! Ask any body man - they use the industrial strength equivalent of Bondo at the factory.

    A BAD use of Bondo is to cover up rust with it. Also, you can't expose it unsealed to moisture. Bondo is NOT water proof. If you put Bondo over good metal than prime and paint it, it can stay there forever - no problems.

    Remember, it's a Jeep. They came off the assembly line with spot welds visible and waves in the metal. It's a four wheel drive, two seat tractor essentially, scars only improve the look.
     
  10. Nov 5, 2004
    michigan_pinstripes

    michigan_pinstripes I'm not lost, I'm wandering

    Clarkston MI...
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    605
    Mike,

    I always welded patches from behind (not butt) so the filler lays flush. Take precautions to seal the backside of the patch with undercoat to resist moisture to grow rust again (like cancer, get rid of it all or it comes back quick)

    Warping is an issue with gas brazing but MIG is more controlled heat (short bursts). I also sand-blast the finished weld to remove any flux contamination etc. Bondo gets fantastic adhesion to sandblasted sheetmetal!! Don't be afraid of bondo as it is a fact of life. I have used lead filler (bars 80% tin 20% lead) which but those kits are hard to find now. Lead is bullet-proof for longevity if applied right. Bondo is nearly bullet proof if applied sparingly. Heavy build-ups will fail you eventually.
     
  11. Nov 5, 2004
    double R

    double R Member

    Reseda, CA
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    332
    most of my patches were small enough that i got very little to no warping at all...except for one large piece on the back corner...when i was welding the patch with my 110 mig, i didn't do straight welds but a series of overlapping spot welds...of course giving enough time for the metal to cool down and jumping around the workpiece...and immediately after welding i would put a dolly behind the work and hammer the joint flat...then i ground the excess weld...i was also careful in grinding the welds, making sure i don't aggressively grind the welds, which creates more heat, possibly warping the metal.

    as far as the repair needing bondo...in my experience it was by chance. there were instances when i tried my best to minimize warping but was just plainly unavoidable..some needed bondo some didn't...

    if i had the flanging tool i would've done it that way...since the book says to do it that way...otherwise either way would work...

    just to give you an idea...to fix one rust hole took me about 2 hours...
     
  12. Nov 5, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Thanks for the replies!

    Jon- I think Eastwood still sells leading kits. Is it worth me trying to find/use lead over bondo? I know I'll have to use a filler of some sort.

    BTW- what kind of tub/fenders are you looking for? I might have some stuff with your name on it....
     
  13. Nov 5, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
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    Considering I've never attempted it, I think I would be beside myself if I could do a good job in 2 hours. I'm giving myself a weekend to fix what you see above. Maybe it won't be that bad.
     
  14. Nov 5, 2004
    jd7

    jd7 Sponsor

    Nacogdoches,Texas
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
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    1,745
    What everybody said. Plus be aware thre are fillers that don't abosorb moister and they are as easy to use as bondo. Unless you hammerweld everything then dolly it out for hours then filler is inevitable. Thats way beyond my ability and would make it better than new and unusable for what we do with them. ;)
     
  15. Nov 5, 2004
    mb82

    mb82 I feel great!

    Charlottesville Va
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,706

    lead over bondo? do you mean put lead ontop of bondo?

    trust someone who one day was welding too close to bondo IT BURNS BIGTIME even melted and caught my shoe on fire, but that weld was a nice one i do have to say.
     
  16. Nov 5, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
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    My last post was poorly written. I meant to ask if lead would be a better choice for a filler rather than bondo? I know it is harder to find and more difficult to work with but I'm curious if it would hold up better over the long run...
     
  17. Nov 5, 2004
    Brokermike

    Brokermike Money Savvy, Jeep Newbie

    VT
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
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    In my expereince leading can wear heavily on the patience, but works very well in some situations. I have used it around filler necks, etc, and in repairing seams for asthetic(Sp?) purposes.

    Hope this helps.
     
  18. Nov 5, 2004
    scott milliner

    scott milliner Master Fabricator

    Seattle Wa.
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    2,361
    I repaired the same area on both sides of my body. I also cut out and replaced a panel for the inside structure. I would do what everyone else said, but try to say away from the door opening. It's easier to bondo a flat panel than trying to fill a round edge.

    I would've taken some pictures but my camera needs recharging.
     
  19. Nov 5, 2004
    JohnyJeep

    JohnyJeep BLOWING A XING NEAR U@2AM

    Beautiful Cody WY
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
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    513
    Wow Mruta yours looks just like mine did. Don't forget to treat the brace inside with a rust preventative/neutralizer before welding your patch in. After my patch was welded in I also used seam sealer and undercoating on the inside where the brace is to help keep moisture out.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Nov 5, 2004
    michigan_pinstripes

    michigan_pinstripes I'm not lost, I'm wandering

    Clarkston MI...
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    605
    Mike,

    Leading is a great product but will require some practice.

    Leading is like sweating pipes (plumbing) --awesome adhesion and lifetime strength. It is soft enough to metal-file to a finish but I was not good enough to metal finish it well enough to avoid a thin finish of bondo.

    You will need a "wide flame" torch tip for leading. The kit will include a wood paddle, acid flux, and bee's wax tallow (for the paddle). the lead bars are sold separately.

    You heat the surface and treat with the flux. When hot enough the lead bar will melt. While still liquidy, smear the lead with a shop towel to "tin" the entire repair area to a shiney lead coat. At this point, you can add thicker amounts of lead and "paddle" the globs around smooth. Caution, when too hot, it will fall completely off on the floor (or on your foot).

    Yeah, lead is old-school and worth trying if you are curious. IMO, you won't gain anything substantial vs. good fiberglass + bondo filler work. In reality, the lead repair will still be in tact when the rest of the surface around it rusts out. So, on an antique Jeep body, a new rust through spot is inevitable and may appear a few years from now right next to the lead repair!

    Lead use to be applied in the assembly plants to fill roof seams for strength against flexing. I don't think that is even the case anymore.

    edit: my fenders and tub on the 5 are held together with rivets and "kitty hair" fiberglass neatly finished with bondo (looks remarkable actually). I expect these to crumble eventually. Are yours better? I may have to make a weekend field trip to Chicago to give you some bodywork consulting!
     
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