Steering issue with a locker

Hi all,

I have a 1950 3A that had a richmond locker installed in it last year. Since the installation, steering has been extremely difficult. The mechanic who installed this unit also installed an identical unit in his 2A and has had no adverse impact on steering. We have taken the diff cover off and the locker does seem to be operating properly. Meaning there is room to disengage when needed.

My 3A has a 2 - 2 1/2" lift and the tie rods have been flipped. Stock differential. I have swapped spicer axles in for the Rzeppa style and none of this has improved the situation. It is most impacted once the front hubs are engaged, or it is in 4wd.

When on jack stands, if I turn the wheels to a full lock position, even in 2wd, I need to use the steering wheel to restart the direction change to the opposite side. I cannot return the wheels to center by turning the wheels themselves or the steering knuckle. (I don't believe I have tried this with the bellcrank unattached.)

I still have the original Ross steering box though I am planning to upgrade to a manual saginaw system. Does anyone have any ideas as to what may be causing the steering issues that I could look at before I do the saginaw conversion? Could the steering box itself cause this?

I could not find this problem searching the site.

Any advise will be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

John

 

True Lockers in a front axle on pavement are not going to turn worth a darn. When you make a turn the outside wheel has to travel farther than the inside wheel. That's what to original open diff allows. But as you know if you loose traction on one wheel with the stock diff all the power goes to that wheel. With your locker installed when you make a turn on a hard surface the outside wheel is locked to the inside wheel so it forces the inside wheel to spin faster. If it cannot slip it will force the vehicle to go straight. NEVER engage the hubs on a front axle with a true locker installed on the street. Nothing good can come from that. But off road they are GREAT. Off pavement the wheels slip a bit on the ground allowing you to turn and reliving drive line stresses.

 

Yes. A locker means that the front wheels cannot turn any slower than the driveshaft. To turn the front wheels, one wheel must turn faster (or slower) than the other. So, to turn the wheels with a locker, you are forcing the outside wheel to turn faster than the driveshaft. The outside wheel won't accelerate without adding energy (work), sp. from your muscles.

The proper question is - what's wrong with your mechanic's Jeep? Because your Jeep is behaving as would be expected with a front locker.

 

Both my Willys(CJ3a&wagon)have lockers in the front axle. Hard surface driving is not effected at all when the hubs are not engaged. Do not engage the hubs on hard surfaces. Lockers are excellent for off-roading. Limited Slip differentials are excellent for hard surfaces. My Willys wagon, which I use often as a tow vehicle, has a limited slip in the rear axle and a locker in the front. This set up works great for my type of driving.
I believe the problem you have is in the Ross box and or linkage. The stock steering is marginal at best IMHO. I experienced this with both vehicles. Both my Willys steering systems are converted to saginaw power steering. You are experiencing the domino effect. One modification leads to another.....

 

sounds to me like your locker is more positive than his....
so, you're complaint is the steering isn't returning back to center after turning?

 

Just so I’ve got this straight: in 2WD with your front hubs disengaged you’re still experiencing difficult steering?

 

This.

With the hubs unlocked there should be no difference/effect in steering because the wheels/tires/hubs are disconnected from the shafts.

It sounds like you already dove back in the front axle to swap out shafts (not sure why but hey) but something must be off in there. If the problems presented with the locker install, make sure the cross shaft is allowing the shafts to seat fully inside the carrier (locker) splines. If the shaft joints aren't centered between the kingpins the steering would bind with or without the hubs locked 'cause there's a couple of big, metal hinges inside that don't want to move (ie - the shafts).

As for driving on the street with the hubs locked, I've done it before - mostly in my Jeeps coming from the trail back to camp or hotel (in Moab). You'll notice some feedback from the steering wheel, but as long as you've got the T-case in 2WD, the locker should only chatter and maybe give a bit of wheel shimmy and pull. Not ideal, but doable.

That said, I never recommend auto lockers to people running a front diff w/out locking hubs - even a modern CAD unit bearing design like YJ.

 

Thanks to all who have responded so far.

I am using a Richmond, lockright locker 2110. It does have some slip to it.

I will try to answer a few of the questions asked. My issue is just simply that it is hard to turn. Extremely so in 4wd.

It is not really a problem limited to re-centering after turning. That and the 2wd comment I mentioned was in regards to when I am working on it. I just had it on jack stands and when I turned the knuckles to full lock in one direction, I usually had to get up and use the steering wheel to get the wheels to start moving the other direction. (This weekend I will disconnect the steering box from the bellcrank and see if this continues.) I believe the domino effect that was mentioned is right on the money here.

I had the different axles available and tried the swap to see if that resulted in any change. I was only out some time.

Other things I have tried.
Trail riding in 4wd, I often have to goose the throttle to make a turn. It (locker) seems to unload enough after goosing the engine to allow for a turn. So, it does posses some slipping capability.

I have also done some trail riding with it in 4wd, but with one front hub dis-engaged until I get to a challenging climb or obstacle. Then I jump out and re-engage the hub. This is frustrating to do for a weekend. I am absolutely thrilled how it climbs, but I just need to be pointed in the right direction.

I also removed the 4wd low range pin so I can wheel in 2wd low. I wheel a good bit in 2 low now with the front hubs engaged. This makes it easier to steer compared to being in 4wd, but is more difficult then it was prior to the locker. Running in 2 low, I only engage the front differential when needed also. This then results in the difficulty in steering.

Again, I appreciate the comments so far. I'll do the little test with the steering box disconnected this weekend.

If any other thoughts come to mind, please do not hesitate to respond with an additional post.

Thanks again.

John

 

If it's locking the steering, I bet you have some worn components. I have an Aussie up front w/ a LS TrakLoc in back. I've been running 40 mph in snow covered roads here lately. The trick to steering what I have is no torque when turning, IWO, foot off the throttle. I would however sugest a change to a Saginaw setup, either manual or power. It has a lot fewer pivot points which could be causing some if not all of your problems.

 

I don't have any experience other than what I've read, but is it possible your u-joints aren't 'timed' or 'clocked' the same on both sides of the front axle? I remember seeing that they need to be timed in order for the steering to be the most effective.....

 

Old Bill, you are thinking of u-joints on a driveshaft.

 

What oil are you using!!
I have had many richmond brand box lockers in rears and fronts.. I decided once to use heavy gear oil because of the condition the axle was in! This was a bad idea! the thick oil would not allow the locker to work correctly and it would not "slip" or release.. 80/90 gear oil MAX...
Did you guys do the actual Richmond test! like the instructions say!
jack up the rig and spin the tires in opposite directions and then reverse that..if not! you ned to read the instructions and do this test! you may have a spring bound up or ???

 

Sparky,

I have been using 75-140 wt. synthetic lube. Thanks for the history on your oil experience and asking about the Richmond test. I will check on that also.

John

 

Well, time for a small update.

My one piece tie arrived and I installed it today. I disconnected the tie rod that goes from the bellcrank to the right side knuckle. With the steering assembly disconnected, I can now turn the wheels from full lock right to full lock left and back with no binding felt at all. This was on jack stands and turning the wheels right and left while at the front knuckle.

So, for those who think the steering issue is in the steering box, I am fully in your court right now.

Thanks for the direction.

Now on to the steering box or the saginaw upgrade.

John

 

My experience is similar to yours-I have stock Ross steering with a powerlock front diff. Mine's very hard to steer in 4WD also. I use 2 low a lot also. Eventually I plan on a steering upgrade as well.