Body position vs. engine position

Howdy again
This is a continuation of sorts from my previous thread. Details of which can be found here:

http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85351

The current issue I'm looking at is the rearward offset of the fiberglass body. Also, the body lift as a closely related secondary issue.

The serial number on the title indicates this CJ5 is a 1965 Tuxedo Park although there's no VIN plate in sight and no numbers have been found on the frame yet. I'm guessing that this vehicle originally came with the 4 cyl as it now has a V6 with home made mounts.

Additional pertinent details:
Fiberglass body
Rancho lift
Funky body lift w/metal bracketry -hardmounted, possibly welded
1986/87 Buick 231 w/headers
T90
D18 single stick
Saginaw conversion

The body is set too far rearward, first noticed due to the tires not appearing centered in the wheel wells. Upon inspection, the PO drilled another hole in the grill mount in order to offset everything rearward (sorry, no pic of that yet). Drove me nuts trying to figure out why until my recent epiphany. There's very little clearance between the firewall/tranny tunnel and the engine - valve covers, intake, bellhousing. I believe the PO did the misalignment and body lift to get the fiberglass body to fit around the already mounted V6 . I would really like to get the body aligned correctly and lowered. There's a Rancho lift in place and a body lift is just too much additional lift for my tastes.

So, I'm thinking the engine has to be moved forward and/or lower. I did notice there are no spacers between the trans cross member and frame so a little clearance could be gained there. I shouldn't have any clearance issues in the front of the engine as the radiator shroud has been butchered and a new/different radiator installed. I understand I need to ensure clearances amongst all the other pieces though

My questions:
-Am I on the right track?
-Is there a simple solution other than cutting off the welded motor mounts and getting new ones?
-Are there any reference measurements for locating the engine - particularly the vertical placement?
-Is the transmission/xfer crossmember slotted to allow for moving the powertrain forward or will I be re-mounting that piece?

I appreciate any advice, comments, anecdotes, criticism etc.
Thanks very much.
Tim

Here are some pics:
Body offset #1:


Body offset #2 @ rear of tub:


Firewall clearance (might be hard to see, sorry):


No spacers:


Trans mount spacer:


Bellhousing adapeter:


Front:


rear driveshaft slip yoke:


Motor mount looking from outside to inside:


Motor mount from underneath:

 

I just swapped a 231 Buick into my 62 CJ5 last year.

Transfercase/transmission is mounted in the stock location, adapter (looks like yours) between the T90 and the Buick bellhousing.

I never moved my body on the frame, the driver side valve cover is tight against the firewall. I never notched or clearanced it because it just didn't matter to me. Leaves the rear wheel well centered on the tire and all "fits".

Not sure if any of this helps you or not. I'm a stock body, not fiberglass, so i'm not sure if your firewall is shaped like stock or not.

 

Thanks Eaallred.
From the limited research I've done, I think the issues are due the fiberglass body. What motor mounts did you use? How did you set the height of the engine?

 

I agree with Warlock.
PO didn't want to do some of things that a conversion requires. Big mistake.
If it were me, I don't think it would be that much work to junk his motor mount bracketry, and install factory frame mounts or the Novak mounts in the factory position. This way, you can move engine/trans/t-case forward, and it appears you have the room to accomplish just that. Then the body will be closer to a proper fit.
Oh, and the rear driveshaft appears to be collapsed as the Jeep sits now.

 

I made my own mounts on the frame, and used stock Buick v6 mounts from Napa to tie it in. Worked out really well. I also boxed the frame in where the mounts were installed for extra strength "just in case":



As for height, I positioned it so that the centerline of the crank was in the same place as it was for the F-head that was previously installed. This did put the motor down fairly low, so I ended up having to clearance the starter housing a bit for front driveline clearance. Not much, but a little.

For my first engine swap, i'm very happy with how it turned out.

 

Thanks for your insights guys.

Warloch - what's your experience with glass bodies? Do you have to do things differently with regards to drivetrain placement?
Great info, by the way. I'll be combing through your website

jpflat2a - I think I'm going to tackle this project with Novak mounts. when you say install them in the factory position - where is that exactly? Specifically front to back. I can't seem to find any reference to the factory position of the V6.
I figured the rear driveshaft was too far collapsed. here's a pic of the front shaft. It looks like they tried to lengthen it and then scabbed gusset of sorts along side.

I'm trying to find all the warts on this thing. So far, not too many surprises.

 

I also need to add - I'm not a very accomplished welder. I'll need to get everything located and use bolts until I can get enough jobs to justify hiring a mobile welder. Not sure if this makes any difference or not.

looks good Eaallred - I ran across your pic and post in my searching. Do you have a suspension lift? If no, do you think you would have had the same starter housing interference if you had a 2-3" spring lift?

 

I was just suggesting that you can get the factory locations or measurements from folks here as to where the placement of the frame mounts should be.
That front driveshaft should be in the hall of shame.
We need more/better pics of that please.

 

FWIW My factory 225 had rubbing between the front driveshaft / starter with sagged springs. With 2" springs - no problem. I have theorized that the factory had a torque stabilizer/ shock mounted on the engine

 

I haven't taken a tape measure and verified this as correct, but it's from the manual and might help...



Here's a little higher res version:
http://www.mninter.net/~molsen/jeep/Diagrams/Frame_V6.jpg

 

Zoomer - that's awesome! Thanks
Tim

 

What's up with your front driveshaft? If it is what I think it is than that is one of the worst inbreed bastard creations I have seen in a while. lol

 

Yup, the body's coming off in the spring and I'll be going over it closely.

Glamour shots of the front driveshaft will be coming next week. Here's another example of the "engineering" on this rig (I'll be sleeving this):

 

My CJ is bone stock suspension-wise. 50 year old sagged springs. (boo). I think with fresh stock springs I probably wouldn't rub, with 2 or 3 inch lift springs I would be confident in saying "no way" would it ever hit/rub.

Sounds like from what Barucker is saying, my driveline rubbing is not a sign of the engine being that much out of place since mine are so old.

 

Don't know about engine location off hand but it seems your radiator is in the wrong position. Here are some "stock" without the radiatior moved in relation to a 225/231 engine mounted at stock engine mounts.

 

opps here is what the second was susposto be.

 

Does the frame have any reminisce of where they torched off(most likely) the previous mounts?
Getting a "stock" measurement from the front of the frame to the water pump/block etc will give you a idea where the engine should be(unless the front of the frame has been torched).

 

Does anyone know why the V6 is offset to the left?

It is probably something simple I am just missing.