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Yeah Baby. EFI 225!!!

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by msbweiland, May 20, 2004.

  1. Jul 23, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Here is where I am looking at things.

    MS - 'Junk yard parts/4.3' - based on research for a 'working' setup and the normal rebuilt parts you need to ensure the 4.3 works right, Fuel pump, relays, plugs and it assumes the sensors work, a wide band O2 etc you are about $950 give and take... Now you can save some $ with the kit, I am looking at the completed units. However, you spend additional funds on the stimulator and other things to ensure the kit you build works so it's not as much of a savings as you would first think.

    Holley Commander 950-19S (the 400CFM kit) from Summit is @ $1300 while the 2D 502-20S in 670CFM is @ $980 - then you need to get the 65# injectors to reduce it to 400 CFM.

    The 3rd I just recently started looking hard at is the Powerjection III - it's about $1500 with pump and all and 750 CFM TBI.

    Pros and Cons
    It looks to be about the same work to put the MS and Holley on a 225. You get more 'possibilities' with the MS, but based on reading and a friend I work with that has built a couple the learning curve is the highest with MS as well. Where the Powerjection III shines is the plug and play. You only have to worry about coolant and O2 sensors. It is also self learning or you can tune with a laptop. Install time on it would be less than a day for someone with a square bore intake already on the engine. They say it works for V8 and V6, but I have not gotten confirmation on specifics for the 225.
     
  2. Jul 23, 2009
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    The CFM ratings shouldn't matter wrt engine size, within reason. Compared to a carburetor, a throttle body will have high CFM ratings compared to engine size, and does not need high vacuum to function. The TB needs enough vacuum so that the MAP sensor works. A carb uses vacuum to do work (ie move the fuel around and move mechanical bits) while EFI relies on electricity to do the work. As long as you can get an injector size that will provide enough capacity but isn't so large that it's uncontrollable at idle, you should be fine.
     
  3. Jul 23, 2009
    cj6/442

    cj6/442 Sponsor

    Fallbrook, Calif
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    I run 2 tanks main and rear, would I need 2 pumps,and timgr if cfm does not matter then the 650 projec or 750 powerject would be fine ? i mostly want to do this so it will run great at elevation.................. with carbs ..........on the Olds a 650,775 and 850 sure make a HUGE difference .but I know a different beast......................went to the powerjection site that unit is huge and I mean huge
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2009
  4. Jul 23, 2009
    EricM

    EricM Active Member

    Southern California
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    The Powerjection guys, RetroTekSpeed are in Corona, that could be helpful.
     
  5. Jul 23, 2009
    hudsonhawk

    hudsonhawk Well-Known Member

    North Texas...
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    Actually you would need some way to switch between the two tanks. EFI has a fuel return line to return excess fuel instead of filling a bowl. The preasure is controlled by a regulator that allows excess fuel to return to the tank.

    In order to run two tanks you need to have a switch mechanism that shunts both the pickup and return lines between the two tanks. Otherwise you risk overfilling one tank with returned fuel.

    As for preasure, TBI systems run about 13PSI. So you need a pump that can maintain at least that preassure even under WOT. I run a 24 PSI Holley Pump on my 258 with a GM TBI and MSII V.3 controller. It has never had a problem with fuel delivery.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2009
  6. Jul 23, 2009
    hudsonhawk

    hudsonhawk Well-Known Member

    North Texas...
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    The MS learing curve is steep but think of it this way. When you are done you will know every part of it. If something goes wrong you will be in a much better position to diagnose and fix the problem with out having to go to outside sources.

    As for the cost estimate. I am on my 3rd computer. In total I may have $750 in the system including the fuel pump. I built all 3 computers from the components and can diagnose and repair the hardware if necassary. The ability to plug in a notebook and see what the computer is doing while the engine is running helps in tunning out problems and you can even log runs to help increase efficency and performance. It also helps to diagnose faulty sensors.

    The only real problem I have is not being able to make the IAC work correctly. Otherwise I love it.
     
  7. Jul 23, 2009
    bkd

    bkd Moderator Supreme Staff Member 2022 Sponsor

    K-Town Tenn.
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  8. Jul 23, 2009
    EricM

    EricM Active Member

    Southern California
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    I was reading up on the Powerjection system and it has a version that doesn't use a return line. (I have no idea how well it works, and have no experiece with it, but I thought it was an interesting difference).
     
  9. Jul 23, 2009
    hudsonhawk

    hudsonhawk Well-Known Member

    North Texas...
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    It may use a pump that is set to maintain a given pressure at all times.
     
  10. Jul 23, 2009
    green71jeep

    green71jeep work in progress

    Riegelsville Pa
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    The success story is me I have been at this for while and there is always something new coming along to learn about. And as Hudsonhawk has stated there is a steep learning curve but it is well worth it you learn so much but at times it can make your head hurt.
    But my buddy Ryan/willys59cj5 and I can assure anyone that Megasquirt runs great on a 225 and we have another member here out in Colorado that I am helping out that is running MSII on his Commando.
    I should say I can assure you it will run great as long as you are willing to put in the time reading,preparing and tuning to get it that way.
    And MSIIextra can now run spark and timing on an oddfire but there is major learning curve to implement that but it is totally doable.

    Hudsonwawk have you tried any off the newer MSIIextra codes they have done allot of work with IAC settings.And there was also something about resistor diodes ect. I dont remember that needed to be removed on some installs to ge the IAC to work properly, this was quite awhile ago.
     
  11. Jul 23, 2009
    hudsonhawk

    hudsonhawk Well-Known Member

    North Texas...
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    I honestly think my IAC may be the problem. It is a JY part after all. I have set the jumpers they say is required on the MSII. Sometimes it works sometimes it don't. Its more a nussance then anything else. One of these days I will get around to fixing it.

    I have never looked at the extra code. I just run fuel and have never thought of lokiong at it for IAC.
     
  12. Jul 23, 2009
    electricontr

    electricontr Member

    Denver Colorado
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    If I remember correctly, msbweiland got his running fine except at wot where it was a little rich. He didn't use the closed loop accessory. I bought a projection because of his success and I got the closed loop part too. I've had to stop for a while cause I got a new tub and I'm fitting it to all the non standard stuff hanging pedals, power steering, sm420 etc. but I should have that all done soon and will start again on the FI. I'll let you know how it goes. It's on a Holley V6 manifold and uses two fuel pumps per previous threads. One regular projection pump and one Holley red body pump so the regular one doesn't have to work so hard.
     
  13. Jul 23, 2009
    green71jeep

    green71jeep work in progress

    Riegelsville Pa
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    Hudsonhawk I have always had better luck with the extra code and I run fuel only as well the guys that work on that code really put allot of time into it to assure it works great and all the extra feature are allot of fun to play with as you learn what they do.
     
  14. Jul 23, 2009
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
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    Right now I have my water proof mini-MS built and the 4.3 throttle body out in the garage, I have the harness that came with the tbi unit and all the sensors. I have $235 total in it. I will need to replace the o2 sensor and get a fuel pump, make an adapter for the intake. I think it is doable on about $450-$500. Learning curve can be steep but from what I have gotten from my friend Steve, very easily learned especially if your an IT guy that thrives on this crap. He will be my tuning guru and educator. To give you an idea of how good he is, he has the 1st (actually one of the 1st fuel injected 2 strokes period) MS fuel injected 2 stroke motorcyle, an RZ350 Yamaha. With several members here running this there should be several fuel maps to start with for the 225.
     
  15. Jul 23, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I actually called and talked to the Powerjection guys today. They are 90% sure it will work with the HEI on the OF and will be sending me an e-mail one way or another.

    I am an IT/Computer Geek for my living, and have spent quite a bit of time working with the Holley 950 FI on a buddies setup. It has taken quite a bit of work to get it working good, and he still has startup issues. He is seriously thinking of selling the 950 and getting the Powerjection Setup.

    I firmly believe that if there is a 'cheap' way to FI, the MS is the way to get it. The problem I have been running into is that out here in CO anything that is 'working' in the FI esp the 4.3 type costs a pretty penny. Most folks want a C note for a bare working 4.3 TBI with No wires, sensors, anything - I got one for $60 in the last 4 months of looking and it's going to need some work. I have NO desire to work on circuit boards and build the ECU... that leaves me with less than a $500 difference to do the MS, Holley vs the Powerjection.

    To be honest - the possibility of going out to the shop on Saturday morning and driving out with FI by lunch is VERY intriguing. I just for me, time on something like this can be worth the $ to get it done with – not to mention I don’t have any high $ work left to do on my rig.

    Something I will be wrestling with over the next couple months.
     
  16. Jul 23, 2009
    cj6/442

    cj6/442 Sponsor

    Fallbrook, Calif
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  17. Jul 23, 2009
    hudsonhawk

    hudsonhawk Well-Known Member

    North Texas...
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  18. Jul 23, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    :iagree:

    If it was here I would. Even if I kept it complete for another build.
     
  19. Jul 23, 2009
    Hawkes

    Hawkes Member

    Nova scotia
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    On topic: I have a 4.3 TBI in my Jeepster, using the stock harness. I never hooked up the check engine light, out of sight out of mind. ;)

    off topic: The down side to living in the rust belt is... rust. The upside? Lots of 4.3's in the junkyard, a good one can be had for a couple hundred, and ecm's are about $40. My favorite local place would be less. I have a few spares in the garage. No problem buying a whole Astro or Safari for $300, but it won't have rocker panels or a floor.
     
  20. Jul 23, 2009
    cj6/442

    cj6/442 Sponsor

    Fallbrook, Calif
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    only problem with that option is I'm in love with the tractor like exhaust note of the Dauntless.
     
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