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FI a Dauntless

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Warloch, Apr 15, 2009.

Page 1 of 6
  1. Apr 15, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Well - curiosity has gotten the better part of me, and my buddy Sheldon (Shrek and Commando) wants to fool with FI.

    So I am starting to pull things together to make it work on the 225 I am running. Probably will not get it done till later in the summer, but am going to try to document it so others can follow along if they want.

    I have PMed some of you guys with experience and have gotten some feedback - I would appriciate anything anyone else can think of and will put it in as well.

    Starting parts list and a few questions can be found on my home page under the Winter 08 09 - ya - will probably have to rename the page :)

    http://www.warloch.com/Winter 08 09.htm
     
    Warloch, Apr 15, 2009
    #1
  2. Apr 15, 2009
    73cj5

    73cj5 Member

    Maine
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    what system are you thinking of running? GM based? or Mega squirt?
     
    73cj5, Apr 15, 2009
    #2
  3. Apr 15, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Looking at the GM based TBI with MegaSquirt ECU. I will be focusing on Fuel Only at first and then we may move to spark with the 360 in the Commando.
     
    Warloch, Apr 15, 2009
    #3
  4. Apr 16, 2009
    ncs

    ncs New Member

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    Apr 2, 2007
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    I'm helping a friend setup a gm tbi on a stroked 350. Probably the best two things you can do is get a set of balanced injectors and add a fuel pressure gauge. It's really hard to set the injector scaling without those two things.
     
    ncs, Apr 16, 2009
    #4
  5. Oct 20, 2009
    jayhawkclint

    jayhawkclint ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Oklahoma City, USA
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    May 18, 2006
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    Dang that Powerjection III looks slick, but I wonder if they're going to come out with a 2bbl version.
     
    jayhawkclint, Oct 20, 2009
    #5
  6. Oct 20, 2009
    Dummy

    Dummy I kick hippies

    Escondido, CA
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    646
    Nope on the 2bbl Powerjection III, but you can step the injector size down to work on any engine from an L-head 4-banger and up if you need to. I'm fairly sure the unit will work on a Buick 225 as is. You plug in your laptop, enter the toque of the engine and the number of cylinders, and then drive it. The computer adjusts the injector pulse to deliver the right amount of fuel.
     
    Dummy, Oct 20, 2009
    #6
  7. Oct 20, 2009
    grannyscj

    grannyscj Headed to the Yukon

    Anchorage, AK
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    Will this work on an Offy intake or would it require an adapter?:v6:
     
    grannyscj, Oct 20, 2009
    #7
  8. Oct 20, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Bolts to a square bore just like a Holley Carb. I did the checking into it and they said it will work even with the injectors that come in it. I have even seen a list of rev and run you can do before pulling out of the shop that gets the computer 80% tuned. This and a Holley Projection are on my 'play list' for the winter. I will keep folks updated - I posted related info on another thread here and will see about rounding it up.

    I really like the idea of a single day to drive in carb on a carb and be running via FI that afternoon.
     
    Warloch, Oct 20, 2009
    #8
  9. Nov 16, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Warloch, Nov 16, 2009
    #9
  10. Nov 17, 2009
    willys59cj5

    willys59cj5 Sponsor

    Gilroy, CA
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    Hi Chuck,
    I took a quick look at the EZ-EFI system and read this in the installation instructions:

    EZ-EFI™ is an advanced fuel injection system. Engine speed is one of the fundamental elements of its
    fueling calculations. In order for it to operate properly, it relies on the ignition system for a steady,
    reliable RPM signal. An inconsistent or noisy RPM signal can appear to the ECU as erratic engine
    speed. Spikes, dropouts and general instability of the RPM signal fed into the ECU can have an
    adverse effect on the running of the engine. It can also interfere with proper learning or prevent
    learning altogether.

    I would call them and see if the odd fires uneven RPM signal will cause problems for the ECU before dropping so much coinage.

    Looks to be pretty expensive, but is packaged nicely and made as bolt on as one could get with EFI.
     
    willys59cj5, Nov 17, 2009
    #10
  11. Nov 17, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Ryan - I saw the same thing in relation to how to hook up the tach signal. I have also read alot of posts on the Corvette forum from one of the designers and they had some real issues with electronic 'pulse' issues interfering with the ECU.

    I will be talking to them on the phone to get a guarantee as to it's viability like I did from the Powerjection Folks before I get it.
     
    Warloch, Nov 17, 2009
    #11
  12. Nov 17, 2009
    terrorent

    terrorent Commando Commander

    Austin, TX
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    Nov 15, 2009
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    terrorent, Nov 17, 2009
    #12
  13. Nov 17, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I can not get to the web page terrorent, however, any pulse that can be accepted into the ECU to give rpm would be OK to use as long as you are not using it for spark control. RPM is RPM be it Odd fire or Even.
    To me the question is 'can the ECU accept the RPM signal from the Odd Fire HEI ignition system' - and then - 'can the ECU accept the RPM signal from a standar Coil on the Odd Fire engine'. If it can tell a valid RPM from those signals it should work. This will depend on if it's more sensitive than a tach that seems to work fine.

    There has been some debate that the HEI smooths out the RPM signal, I don't know for sure at this point (and I am not going to lick my finger and hold it on the wire to find out :) )
     
    Warloch, Nov 17, 2009
    #13
  14. Nov 18, 2009
    terrorent

    terrorent Commando Commander

    Austin, TX
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    I asked Norman from Affordable Fuel Injection about the post I made earlier about the crank sensor. He had this to say:
    So I guess the Odd-fire is still a problem. I think the problem is that the computer is expecting an even signal of fires for a full revolution (...|...|...|...|...|...|).
    Whereas the odd fire will produce a staggered signal (..|....|..|....|..|....|).
    I know from my edumucation that a PLL (Phase Locked Loop) is very hard to make without a steady stream of ups and downs with low jitter (variation between pulses). The circuit probably can't lock on to a single RPM. 1000 RPM probably looks like anything random between 833 and 1083 RPM.

    They're working on an aftermarket sensor they can sell to us.
     
    terrorent, Nov 18, 2009
    #14
  15. Nov 18, 2009
    willys59cj5

    willys59cj5 Sponsor

    Gilroy, CA
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    Jun 1, 2005
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    There was one member here that purchased a gm setup that used a crank trigger. It was said to work just fine.

    Torrorent your right there needs to be even pulses between firing. We aren't sure if EZ-EFI will work with the 225 as no one has clarified this yet with the company.

    One the megasquirt datalogs without the RPM averaging on, the datalogs do exactly as you say range erratically between a high and low RPM the graph looks crazy. Yet megasquirt has the prorgamming to deal with this erratic imput.
     
    willys59cj5, Nov 18, 2009
    #15
  16. Nov 18, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Warloch, Nov 18, 2009
    #16
  17. Nov 19, 2009
    grannyscj

    grannyscj Headed to the Yukon

    Anchorage, AK
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    I run a DEI ignition w/ a Sun tach. The signal must be steady as the needle is rock solid, not twitchy at all (technical term).:v6:
     
    grannyscj, Nov 19, 2009
    #17
  18. Nov 19, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Update on EZ-EFI - I talked to them this AM. The issue is not the irregular pulses from the HEI (or any unit) it's the 'quality' that the ECU needs to run the way it was designed. The tech stated that the FI system was really designed to run with thier, or and anothers, after market ignition module. He specifically mentioned MSD. So, I went to MSD's sight and did some reading, then called them. They have a Digital 6-Plus module that works with and Odd Fire motor (has the setting available on the box) - Summit Price $287.95.

    I was not able to get back to FAST to confirm that the 6-Plus will work, but will and post it here.
     
    Warloch, Nov 19, 2009
    #18
  19. Nov 19, 2009
    willys59cj5

    willys59cj5 Sponsor

    Gilroy, CA
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    That bumps the price up even more......

    $2,136.99+$287.95= $2424.94
     
    willys59cj5, Nov 19, 2009
    #19
  20. Nov 19, 2009
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I have found it as low as the $17XX range for the full kit (every thing you need). Atlantic Speed has it now for $1899 but will be looking for where I saw it cheaper. I know it was close to the Powerjection III prices.
     
    Warloch, Nov 19, 2009
    #20
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