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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. May 27, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    Been spending more time with the 58 in prep for the OWF RFTH.....
    I run a Spal electric fan and initially installed a 185F thermal switch at their recommendation.....but with the 185F switch and 180 thermostat, the temp never dropped enough for the fan to kick off - it would need to get to 165-170F and the thermostat would just close up to keep the temp up at 180F. So finally got the electric fan switch changed from the 185F to the 195. It'll kick on at 195F and shut the fan off at 175-180F. I run the thermal switch in the thermostat cap as there is only one other port and its for the temp guage.
    [​IMG]

    The old suspension on this thing is pretty tired. Its on the list of stuff to replace with a little lift and some taller tires etc, and hopefully improve the stance, off-roadability and handling I hope, but for now budget limitations mean its gonna run on the 30s with saggy suspension for at least another year. For 3 years I've been looking at the long ubolts hanging out the bottom of the spring plates, but just never got around to trimming them thinking it would all get replaced. With 30s, it need every fraction of inch of clearance it can get:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Finally, thinking ahead a bit....wondering about these front frame horns:
    [​IMG]
    Been thinking about boxing them in and/or adding some sort of front cross-member. The wagon frame is a little bigger than the cj horns, and the stickout from the riveted cross-member is an inch or two less than the cj at 9-10", but I feel with bigger tires and harder use, it might still be a good idea? The driver side frame rail is essentially boxed with the saggy swap mount plate, and it would be pretty easy to box in the passenger side. But that got me to thinking if I should also add some sort of cross-member - I believe on the original cj design, the front channel bumper helped act as a bit of a cross-member, but the wagon bumper seems less rigid or helpful with reinforcement. I like the idea of a solid cross-member to add a tow point to, although it would have to be along the bottom as the front face will be behind the curved chrome bumper.

    So I am kind debating if I should just box the rails, and/or add some sort of cross-member....kind of looking for ideas. I was thinking something like 3.5x1.5 3/16" rectangular tubing sorta like what Chuck helped me do on the cj right at the front end of the horns. The challenge with a rectangular tubing going inside the frame rail is both clearance with the saggy box on the driver side, and the rivet heads that hold the spring hangers. Alternatively, I could use 3/16 C-channel similar to the current frame that goes over the top and bottom flange of the frame rails kind of like a cj bumper (assuming I can find the right size channel), and the recess would provide a bit more clearance around the saggy box.

    just thinking.....don't worry Joe - none of this is happening before RFTH (probably not) - its going as and with a little luck I won't crack the frame....
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2023
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  2. May 27, 2023
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    How about another trailer hitch up front?
     
  3. May 27, 2023
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    This is the front of the frame of Ethans willys pickup. Crossmember made of 3" square tube which fit right in the stock frame channels.

    20230527_211258.jpg
     
    melvinm, 3b a runnin, FinoCJ and 2 others like this.
  4. May 28, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    that is kind of what i'd like to do, but the saggy box is partially in the way on the inside of the driver frame rail. The frame rails are just over 3.5" tall on the wagon, so I might be able to fit something like 3.5x1.5 rectangular tubing just in front of the box. Also have the spring hanger rivet heads to deal with...Guess I could grind them out and reweld them - they are also partially/poorly welded to the frame from the factory, but might be pushing my welding skill. Chuck helped me do something similar like this on the cj....gives me some idea what I am trying to do...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. May 28, 2023
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    We ground the rivet heads down a little bit, and ground a notch in the sqare tube, until it all fit together. Probably not the right way to go about it, but my fab skills are marginal at best.
     
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  6. Jun 10, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    The wagon made it through the two days of easy trail running on RFTH....but it started having an electrical problem. I should have maybe figured it out earlier and saved my ignition coil, but seems the internal VR on the delco 10si alternator burned up.....

    This is the second FLAPS rebuild delco 10si I bought - one for the cj and this one - and both have had some issues. The CJ unit had the bearing go bad, which I was able to replace, and now the VR on this unit. I think I may need to upgrade my alternator purchase to a powermaster like this:
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-7127

    but also wondering if there is a way to replace the internal regulator on one of the delco unit? Looks like this is the internal VR....
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JF8B2Q...awn-garden&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWw
    also looks like they are a bit of a crapshoot regarding how long it will last. Probably the same part that is in there now and died in a year of light use.
     
  7. Jun 11, 2023
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Northern California
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    I’m not an electrical whiz…. But when converting from an old Motorola/VR setup to a 10si/12si you may need a pigtail with a resistor. I know there are adapter harnesses with and without resistors built in. if you need the resistor and don’t have it, you will burn up alternators regularly.
     
  8. Jun 11, 2023
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    I understand the resistor is needed when there is not a indicator bulb used on the dash.
     
  9. Jun 11, 2023
    Cking894

    Cking894 New Member

    Northern California
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  10. Jun 11, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I am a bit of a stickler for 3 wire set-ups with the indicator dash light.....here is a good description of the idea....
    http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/remotevoltagesensing.shtml

    but I will say, the 58 was put together in a bit of a rush, and I did have the voltage sensing wire just jumped over to the alternator output post instead of to the wiring harness junction block I run on the driver fender....With the voltage sensing wire going straight to the ouput post, it basically acts a 1 wire set-up (in a one wire, that short connection is made inside the housing from the manufacturer). But, even with that said, its not the cause of the burnup.
    FWIW - this is the voltage sensing wire that was connected to the alt output post....It was a bit crunchy and corroded so I did tear it open a bit more checking it out. You can see some burnt edge to the post insulator as well.
    [​IMG]
    The question is whether it was a bad VR or whether I have something in my harness that is causing an issue. It also true that with the electric fan, there is often a pretty decent amp demand on the system - these 3 wire delco units are rated at only 55-60 amp, so if everything is on (heater fan, headlights, electric cooling fan, headlights), the total amp load is maxing out.
     
  11. Jun 11, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    FWIW - I've run this exact set-up on the cj for a lot of years, and while it doesn't typically have quite as much electrical load, the system has been flawless electrically (it did have the bearing go bad) even when winching and recharging after winching. Its just a bit slow with a 60 amp alternator compared to something over 100amps etc (one reason I run a permanent magnet winch motor instead of series wound - much less current draw from the winch).
     
  12. Jun 11, 2023
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    Just food for thought here, but at a certain point too much reinforcing can lead to putting too much stress on other parts of the frame.
     
  13. Jun 11, 2023
    Sierra Bum

    Sierra Bum Member

    The High Sierra
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    I’ve got a 140amp Power Master 10si. It’s 4-5 or so years old. Last year I noticed it started running almost full field off and on. My volt meter would jump to 16+ volts intermittently. So I changed out the voltage regulator. It’s pretty straightforward if you take care taking it apart. There is an insulated connector in there that may need replacing. Anyway, it solved the problem, and now I carry an extra VR replacement kit in the Jeep.

    edit: I’m also a 3 wire fan.
     
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  14. Jun 11, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
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    It looks like you had high resistance in that wire suggesting a poor connection. Crimp, solder and heat shrink all connections. I like what MADD has
    to say and am a 3-wire fan. Used the 12SI for better cooling and higher amp rating. This is a
    bolt in unit, though may require re-clocking. Resistor/light bulb and diode.
     
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  15. Jun 11, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Got the alternator apart....not sure how to know if the VR is bad....was hoping it was all burnt up. What definitely looks problematic is the resistor that is mounted on top of the VR. Looks like it came out of a 30year old junker unit....
    [​IMG]

    Have to see if I can get a new resistor with new VR....I'd rather risk burning up this one again if there is something wrong with my wiring rather than waste a new one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2023
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  16. Jun 12, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I think you guys are referring to a diode in the pigtail - and yes the indicator bulb in dash would remove the need for the diode....although I think you can use both. The diode just keeps minor current from back flowing ....The indicator bulb acts as a resistor that keeps that backflow from happening.
    Anyway, I bought a replaclement VR, resistor, and pigtail for the 2 blade connections (on the 3wire) that has built in diode. I do run the OEM dash light, and it used work - and that was probably my first indication that something was wrong - it stopped working recently just before RFTH. I need to check if its still getting 12V aux ignition power, or if the issues with the VR/resistor mean its not connecting to the alternator and flowing current properly (lighting up the bulb) before the alt excites. I also added to my order a 10 terminal fuse block to help clean up some of my under dash wiring. It'll be a switched 12V hub. This will also help identify if an auxiliary circuit is shorting or having an issue. All of those circuits should have an inline fuse or circuit breaker, but between the POs mods and mine, something might have been missed. Lastly, I was thinking of swapping the cj alternator over to the wagon to see if I can identify solely and alternator issue or if something outside of it is causing a problem....of course, iirc, its not trivially easy to pull the cj alternator as the bottom bolt is too long to remove (hits the radiator), so you have to pull the entire mounting bracket.

    and FWIW - I have completely hit the wall with this jeep - ready to sell the damn thing again.
     
  17. Jun 12, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Edit...deleted...nevermind
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2023
  18. Jun 12, 2023
    Tralehead

    Tralehead Member

    Silverado, CA
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    I would venture to guess this is where your problem started. Time to go through the entire charging/battery circuit to check for problems.
    Double crimp, heat shrink and T-9 all of your connections.
    Cmon down and I'll do it for you while you yank that SM465 outta mine :bananatool:
     
  19. Jun 12, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
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    The diode keeps the current from going back to your ignition and causing your engine stay running after you shut the key off. Check your bulb as it will be
    needed to excite your alternator. Alternatively you could use a resistor for that purpose. My light stays on until the engine reaches about 1200 to 1500 rpm.
    I don't mind because it makes me check all gauges on start-up. A reminder if you will.
     
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  20. Jun 13, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Back up, take a breather. A CJ electrical system is dirt simple and perhaps running down problems is a bit frustrating but still very doable. If you want electrical problems that apparently can't be solved short of an entire new wiring harness, I'll give you my JK. Ultimate frustration with hundreds of pinouts to deal with.

    With the price of 12SI alternators, I would just swap that out for a 100 amp version. I've had very good results with Powermaster. But you may have to install a larger gauge battery lead with those.
     
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