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Cj5a Original Brake System

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by IronAgeFan, Dec 8, 2021.

  1. Dec 8, 2021
    IronAgeFan

    IronAgeFan "How'd It Use to be Done?"

    South Central Texas
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    Well, I’m back on my bone stock F134 head ‘64 CJ 5A and I’m trying to prepare to order brake parts and I need to determine what the brake system used on this Tux was from the factory. It’s a late build 8322 127xx, so probably really a 1965 model, but it was always titled a 1964 here in the Lone Star. Are these dual or single reservoir master cylinders on the Tuxes? The backing plates seem to measure 10.75” or so. Any advice is appreciated. I’m replacing nearly everything as it’s sat inside in a garage since the mid 1980s.
     
  2. Dec 8, 2021
    timsresort

    timsresort Active Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    South Lake Tahoe CA
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    Sound like a cool jeep. Single master and 10" brakes. Check out Partsdude4x4.net for early jeep brake parts.
     
    Beach66Bum likes this.
  3. Dec 9, 2021
    Rick Whitson

    Rick Whitson Detroit Area 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    My 64 Tux had 4:27 axels and 9" brakes, single master cylinder. I put 66 V6 3:73 axels in it. I would upgrade to 10" brakes, the 9" brakes are a little wimpy.
    I have a set of 11" brakes for it all done for the front just because the guys on here said they were better. My Jeep goes a little faster with the 3:73 axels it will go 65 mph but I don't push it that hard. Good Luck.
     
  4. Dec 9, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Honestly it could be anything on there, things get changed after a while. Post some pics of the brakes & MC.
     
  5. Dec 9, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    The relevant measurement is the inside diameter of the drum. This implies 10" drums, but maybe not. The best thing to do is pull a drum, measure its ID and post pictures. Easy to do on the front wheel - remove the spindle nuts and pull off the hub and drum together.

    The regulators mandated dual master cylinders around 1968. A vehicle older than that almost certainly will have a single master cylinder from the factory. Conversion to a dual master cylinder is a popular upgrade, and it could have been converted.

    As Howard points out, lots of changes are possible over 4 or 5 decades. Best guess is 10" Jeep brakes with a single piston master cylinder; I would not assume though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2021
  6. Dec 9, 2021
    boopiejones

    boopiejones I can’t drive 55

    California east bay
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    Based on your 10.75” measurement of the backing plates, I think you may have 9” brakes. I have 9” brakes and just measured my backing plates…They are 10.75.

    For reference, here’s a pic of my 9” brakes before I rebuilt them. Forgot to take pics after the rebuild.

    51E01795-90FB-4AA3-AD70-C42D93122EFD.jpeg
     
  7. Dec 9, 2021
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

    East Tennessee
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    I agree they are the 9" brakes used on standard CJ5 from that era. If you need any of the parts I just pulled a set off of a low mileage 67 CJ5 and upgraded it to 11" brakes.
     
    Rick Whitson likes this.
  8. Dec 9, 2021
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    A MKlV Tuxedo Park CJ5a with an F134 ('64-'65) all had 10" Wagner brakes with a single circuit Wagner master cylinder mounted under the floor. The adjusters on the brakes only used the starwheel ratchet that operated when backing up and applying the brakes, no cables on the adjusters.
    Wagner brake parts (sometimes also labelled Lockheed) are pretty difficult to find. Some mid-60's Fords used some of the same hardware.
    The V6 Tuxes, being newer, used different brakes, as far as the adjusters, though still 10" diameter.
    -Donny
     
    truckee4x4 likes this.
  9. Dec 9, 2021
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    You may be correct that all MKIV Tuxedos had the 10" brakes, but the 10.75 measurement of the backing plates does not indicate this particular Jeep has 10" Wagner brakes.

    You are correct that there were no cables on the Wagner brakes, but I am not sure what you mean by "The adjusters on the brakes only used the starwheel ratchet that operated when backing up and applying the brakes, no cables on the adjusters."

    The star wheel alone wouldn't do anything, but many of those brakes have had the auto adjuster rods and pawl removed, because the system just didn't work that well, and the brakes were then manually adjusted with a brake spoon on the star wheel.

    The star wheel on the Wagner 10" brakes was activated by a spring footed pawl, and used rods instead of cables. It is basically the same idea as the Bendix design with cables. Those pawls and rods are the parts that are difficult to find. Everything else is available.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2021
  10. Dec 10, 2021
    Rick Whitson

    Rick Whitson Detroit Area 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Now you got me Donny, I will go and look at my 4:27 axels, I was sure they were 9", but I am old, and losing it. Rick
     
    Lockman likes this.
  11. Dec 11, 2021
    TuxParkIV

    TuxParkIV Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    My 64 build 65 titled CJ5A has 10 inch brakes. Single stage master cylinder.

    If you are doing wheel cylinders rear are left and right.

    Happy stopping!
     
    Beach66Bum likes this.
  12. Dec 11, 2021
    jeepdaddy2000

    jeepdaddy2000 Active Member

    Eagle Point oregon
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    I would be interested in seeing if the Bendix style cable adjusters could be converted to Wagner 10" brakes. Having since ditched my 10" brakes for a set of 11" Waggy (Bendix) brakes, I don't have anything to work with. However, perhaps a kit from an early Bronco (10") and drill the appropriate mounting holes in the brake shoes would give a working self adjusting set up that would be cheap and easy.
     
  13. Dec 11, 2021
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    Jeepdaddy,

    I have wondered about the same thing. Seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do. If you bought 10" brake shoes and hardware for a Ford product it would already have holes for the cable guides.
     
  14. Dec 13, 2021
    Vanguard

    Vanguard Take Off! Staff Member

    Vista, CA USA
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    Skip the 9 and 10" brakes. Go straight to 11". It takes some looking to find the backing plates, but the rest of the parts are way cheaper and you'll stop better too.
     
    colojeepguy likes this.
  15. Dec 13, 2021
    jeepdaddy2000

    jeepdaddy2000 Active Member

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    I'm not sure that would work. Exercising what is left of my memory, I tend to believe the shoes are different, at least in width (Ford being wider). My thought was to simply "transfer" the three needed holes from the Bendix shoes to the Wagner's.
    The brakes operate the same (self energizing).
    The diameter is the same (10").
    The adjusters should be the same (or they could be replaced)

    I think drilling the top hole for the cable guide, drilling the arm fulcrum hole, and possibly adjusting where/diameter of the arm spring hole on the opposite shoe (using the Bendix shoes as a guide) would allow the cable and arm to properly operate on the Wagner shoes. One still might have to use the Bendix spring kit.
    Just a thought.............
     
  16. Dec 13, 2021
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    The 11" backing plates are getting scarce but those from several 60s - early 70s Jeep vehicles, 70s Ford Broncos and F250, IH Scout, and probably others will work, some require a little modification. The rear plates on the flanged axle D44 need two holes drilled in them to fit a tapered axle housing.

    I buy the plates whenever I see a good deal on them. I recently bought 6 11" and 2 10" plates from another forum member, and already had a couple more. So, I ended up with a few extras if anyone wants a pair of them send me a PM.
     
  17. Dec 13, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    F250? I'm sure that's wrong. That's a 12" drum. The F100 uses those Bendix brakes, though they will not bolt in. A little exploring on RockAuto, matching the self-adjusters to the Jeep PNs, will reveal the year range. I know that '65 and '66 are Bendix all around. Some machining required, but I'm not sure of the details. Novak used to sell a publication that told you how to modify the F100 backing plates to work on a Jeep.

    I believe the EB fronts will bolt in, though the rears seem different. Scouts probably too, though I'm not sure what year range. All the '62-73 5-lug Wagoneers and low-GVWR J-trucks with the 44 axle. And of course '72-73 Commandos and '72-75 CJs. '76 and '77 CJ fronts too. NB only rear brake plates have the indent for a cable parking brake. I suspect some Ford/Mercury cars could work too ... I recall an article back in the day about adapting Mercury brakes to Jeeps. Maybe they're not Bendix though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  18. Dec 13, 2021
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    You are probably right about the F-250 brakes, it was something I read on some forum but didn't dig into it.

    Yes, they used to sell conversion kits for Jeeps through magazine adds which were made from mid 50s Mercury car backing plates. There was some machine work involved to adapt them. However, mid 50s Mercuries are getting even harder to find than the brake backing plates that will fit.
     
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