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Howell Odd Fire V6 Fuel Injection Kit Install

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Norcal69, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Aug 11, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    If I were to go with multiple pumps I would probably just retrofit both tanks with their own in tank pump and install a double pole double throw switch to control sending unit/tank pump selection.
    Howell has sold thousands of these kits for CJ's and YJ's that run the same rear tank as I do and supply fuel without issue. The problem has to be coming from something in my setup.
     
  2. Aug 11, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

    Louisville, Ky
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    On the YJ's, what size fuel line do they run from the rear tank? I guess your fuel line is 5/16, do the XJ's have 3/8?
     
  3. Aug 11, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I agree, it is something peculiar to your fuel distribution system. Personally, l believe your fuel tank selector valve is the culprit and in my mind, I questioned it when you said you were placing the pump after the valve. I think there is a large pressure drop across the valve and the pump is having difficulty over coming that, especially considering the distance from the tanks.

    I think you should pursue the idea of bypassing the selector valve to test the system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  4. Aug 11, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Howell provides 5/16" fuel hose.
     
  5. Aug 11, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I think you are correct...... I just fixed the O2 sensor bung leak and lowered the fuel filter to inline with the pump (possibly holding an air pocket because it was higher than the valve and pump).
    Time for a test drive.
     
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  6. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Lowering the fuel filter seemed to improve the stumble/hiccup..... but it was still there...... so I bypassed the tank selector valve and ran a hose from the underseat tank down to the fuel filter/pump. I'm not really sure that this made any improvement. On a 5 mile drive I still had one moment that felt similar to running out of gas.
    The check engine code seems to have gone away. I cleared it right after reading it yesterday morning and drove the jeep more yesterday than I had previously.

    Today I will do a volume check on the fuel pump. Howell says it needs to flow in the range of 40 gph.
     
  7. Aug 12, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Its not a Howell setup, but I run a pre-filter just off the tank in the rear and then my pump and post filter are basically a hard line section along the frame under my seat area. As noted - I had some stumble / pressure issues when I had them separated. I run Walbro pumps on my EZ-EFI setups and will with the Summit setup I'm putting in the '63 build.

    Forgot to mention - mine is plumbed with AN-6 all the way around and I've heard / seen issues with soft hose causing flow problems. That's why I went the braided AN-6 on all of my lines. I know there are some high pressure rated regular looking lines out there now that might provide a cheaper solution.
     
  8. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I checked the fuel volume and I am getting about 40 gal per hr which is in the correct range. I need to get a T fitting and check my fuel pressure with the engine running.

    I was under the impression that Howell used Walbro pumps..... but the pump provided is not. I will end up picking up a Walbro for a spare.
    Steve is thinking that the soft hose may be collapsing under the suction of the pump. I should be able to diagnose this with the fuel pressure gauge taped to the windshield while driving. I am using the hose that Howell provided.
     
  9. Aug 12, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Are you using rubber hose for the low pressure side? I would think the high pressure side would be under positive pressure all the time from the fuel pressure regulator. Not keen on using long runs of rubber hose here, but I don't understand where any negative pressure would come from.

    JMO - anything more than short lengths of fuel hose connecting the tank, pump and throttle body is significantly less safe and reliable than it could be.
     
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  10. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Yes, I have rubber hose coming from the tank to the pump and from the pump to the throttle body as supplied by Howell. My old mechanical pump setup was mostly steel runs with short rubber lengths.
     
  11. Aug 12, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

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    The temperature sensor you installed. Is it possible that the sensor is reading a cooler water/engine temperature and therefore leaning the fuel.
     
  12. Aug 12, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    This is one of the reasons I probably won't go with Howell when I switch mine over. I want a unit with tuner software so I can see when sensors are saying, do data logging, and tune it myself. Having a wide-band O2 sensor is also good because you can see how far off you are.

    It took moving the IAT location and a good 6 months of Dyno, track, and road tuning to really get the Megasquirt II dialed in on the combo of parts in my Mustang.

    If you can see what the sensors are saying when you're having the stumbling issues, it would help a lot to diagnose things.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  13. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    That is possible, but with the engine warmed up and running my temp gun reads 8-10 degrees cooler at the brass T than at the thermostat. With water flowing through it should be pretty close.
     
  14. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I just found out that Steve has an OTC Obd1 computer...... :D He just has to dig up the correct adapter.
     
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  15. Aug 12, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Nice! That should help figure out what's going on.
     
  16. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Yup. I’m going out to irrigate now with a fuel pressure gauge taped to the windshield.
    I like how simple the setup is. Just a couple bugs to work out. The Jeep is not un driveable my any means. The little stumble is just annoying.
     
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  17. Aug 12, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Tonights fuel pressure drive is inconclusive..... The stumble only happened twice and I think I was able to make it happen the second time......
    Maybe its not fuel related. Tomorrow I will hook up my tach see if there is a certain rpm that I can make the shudder happen.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Aug 13, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I think you have a couple of issues that need to be looked at. The engine tune probably needs a small tweak in the operating range where the stumble occurs. The other thing that bothers me is the placement of the fuel pump with respect to the tank. During your earlier test I believe you ran off of the front tank which is closer to where the pump is located. Although the stumble still happened, I think you said it wasn't as noticeable. This to me says, pump placement matters and again an adjustment to the tune is needed.

    When assembling a fuel system, I try to mimic the design characteristics of the oem designs as much as possible. I your case, my fuel pumps would be located in the tanks preferable but at least adjacent and as low as possible if external so that they push fuel to and through your fuel tank selector valve. GM in the late 1980's (same period of time as your ecm was in use) offered dual tanks. They used an electric tank selector valve ($55.00 at Rockauto) that controls which pump and tank is in use as well as fuel level sensor. This arrangement would address any impact that a pressure drop across the selector valve may have on the suction side to the fuel pump. I also use hard lines as much as possible.

    Gather as much information as you can for Howell. This would include engine speed, cruising or accelerating, engine temp, what was occurring just prior to stumble such as decelerating and then onto gas.
     
  19. Aug 13, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

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    Going to throw this out there. If the TB is returning fuel to the tank then it is not a fuel problem. Yes—No

    Is there any way to monitor the return fuel line?
     
  20. Aug 13, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    No, not necessarily. Fuel being returned to the tank just indicates that the fuel pressure regulator is by-passing a portion of the fuel that is being supplied to the throttle body. The fuel pressure test tells you if there is adequate pressure for the injectors to function properly. There can still be a "fueling" issue within the engine. The ecm tries to control engine fueling based on input from the sensors and it's programing (ie: tune)
     
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