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Dj-5c Restoration - 3s + 1w

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by Jeff Bromberger, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Apr 2, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    I went walking the wires in the DJ5 today. I didn't find anything that looks like a fusible link anywhere. The battery POSITIVE cable went directly to one side of the solenoid. The other side of the solenoid went down to where the starter goes when there's an engine installed. And it looks like the ammeter return (yellow) wire goes to the far side of the solenoid as well, together with a quick-n-dirty jumper to the ugly Positive Junction Block.

    Considering I also have the old external regulator that the Motorola (original) alternator required, I suspect that there will be quite a bit of rewiring necessary as well as installing those fusible links. Gotta clip out the old wires for the TCS on the Borg-Warner transmission (it's morphed into a 727).

    Tim - I purchased a six foot length of link. How long should I cut each segment? Does the length have anything to do with the safety function?
     
  2. Apr 3, 2020
    timgr

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    No fusible links on the '74 CJ diagram. There are for '75. The upgraded wiring is a feature of the '75 model.

    I used this kit when I removed the ammeter from my J20. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001BXR9L8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    9" seems to be the nominal length. Similar to what Jeep did.

    From a simple physical view (Ohm's law, P=I^2R), the length should not matter in terms of whether it works or not. The resistance depends on the length, so heating per unit length should not change with length. However, due to its resistance, the smaller wire has more voltage drop per unit length than the large wire it protects. Thus there's a disadvantage to adding more length than you need. There's also the expense of using more than you need. Too short probably gets into end effects changing whether the wire will fuse or not. I'd predict the end connections act like a heat sink on the end material, so it may not open before damaging the rest of the wire if too short.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
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  3. Apr 3, 2020
    ojgrsoi

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    I used two of these: NAPA Belden Part #: BEL 784692
     
  4. Apr 3, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Which explains why nothing is there. I can handle that...

    Which is kind of the way I was going. Take the 36" piece and split it into four.

    Now, if I use the solenoid input as the main junction, I'll have four wires going there:
    • Battery
    • Alternator Charge Wire
    • Alternator Remote Voltage Sense Wire
    • Dashboard/Lights.
    I suspect the link goes for the Dash/Lights lead. Anything else? Or did I miss the whole purpose here? Maybe one goes on the battery lead of the fuse board?
     
  5. Apr 3, 2020
    timgr

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    You protect the wiring from the battery. Your fusible links are located as close to the battery as possible. The battery could short to ground through the wire to the dash, or through the charge wire to the alternator. The sense wire can connect back to the alternator charge wire at the alternator - this is what Jeep does. This puts the fusible link in the charge wire between the sense wire and the battery. The sense voltage drop between the alternator and the battery due to wire resistance is negligible.
     
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  6. Apr 3, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Before I go back to asking questions, today is an important day. I finished my First S - Steering. Everything is installed, torqued down, etc. All I need to do is a wheel alignment and I'm done with that whole part of the project.

    Today, while rummaging around, I found something that makes no sense. On the left side of my starter relay (on the mid-center firewall), there's my hot battery lead and a 10 gauge red wire that ducks through a grommet under the dash. On the right side of my relay, there's the thick wire that goes down to the actual starter, and *another* 10 gauge red wire that dives under the dash. And when you go looking inside, the two wires meet in a fishy place. There's a switch on the dash that's labelled for the heater fan. But the only wires on that switch come from the relay. What's the purpose of something stupid like this? If you throw the switch, won't it basically "hotwire" the car by skipping the relay (and therefore the key switch)? Why would somebody do this? I'm leaning to one of three options:
    • The Starter Relay is trashed so this is a quick workaround
    • The Neutral Safety Switch is trashed so this is a quick workaround
    • The previous owner escaped from Arkham Asylum and is batsh!t crazy
    In any case, that wire/switch is now out of the picture. Now I am just debating what to do. Is there any easy way to test the relay to see if that's the issue? I've got an easy out for the Neutral Safety - the old system had a switch attached to the gear selector. Now that I've got a 727 transmission, it actually comes with the switch internal so I will use that one. Too late to fix the third issue, IMHO.

    While I am talking about relays, there are two small leads on the front. One left side, one right side. Nothing on the left side, couple of wires on the right. That seems completely backwards, right? Isn't the left where the NSS/ground goes? What is going on here?

    This looks like it's time to rip out every wire under the hood and try again.
     
  7. Apr 4, 2020
    timgr

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    No combination of connections on the starter solenoid will hotwire the car. You have the two big posts which supply power to the starter. This is the "relay" part of the solenoid. You send a small current to the small "S" terminal which energizes the solenoid part. The ground for the solenoid is through the bracket. There is a copper disk inside the solenoid that is thrown against a pair of contacts to bridge the two big posts. This is full battery current, potentially hundreds of amps initially. There is also a small "I" terminal (may be missing) that some applications use to bypass the ballast resistor for starting. This is only hot while the starter motor is running - it connects internally to the starter post.

    The first option is possible. Bad starter solenoid is a common problem - we sold dozens of them when I worked parts counter. You can make the starter motor run by bridging the two big posts with your jumper cables (know the obvious dangers in this before you try it). Sending the starter current through 10' of 10 ga wire to a heater switch seems crazy though. I'd say 1 plus 3.

    The solenoid is held together by one or more rivets typically. You can drill them out and open it. Typically they fail by arcing so much over their normal life that the contacts no longer work. Once apart, the ones I've seen can be repaired by scraping the contacts and flipping the copper disk over. You'll need screws to hold it together, lacking any rivets. If the coil is open (no continuity between S and the bracket), it's dead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
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  8. Apr 5, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Pardon my jumping around...

    Just got a huge package of 1N4004 diodes. I need one of them for the alternator swap - it goes into the line that is supposed to light up the ALT light. But in which direction do I expect it to go? The stripe is the Cathode - do I want that on the alternator side or the lamp side?

    MY GUESS: I want the stripe on the alternator side. The purpose of the diode is to stop the excess alternator energy from backfeeding the ignition. It's OK to have the battery go through the lamp and then the diode and then into the alternator, but you don't want the alternator power going back through the lamp and into the battery. Is this the correct reasoning/direction?
     
  9. Apr 5, 2020
    timgr

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    diodesymbol (410 x 156).jpg

    I can never remember the definition of anode and cathode.

    The stripe on the diode matches the bar on the symbol. The traditional positive to negative current flow (backwards from the actual electron flow) goes in the direction of the arrow, positive to negative, source to sink. The anode is the source and the cathode is the sink.

    Put the stripe on the alternator (current sink) side.
     
  10. Apr 11, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    So, who's my tranny connection here? Tell me what you think about this (on a scale of 1 to 10):
    Trans_Pan_Nightmare.jpg

    The remaining fluid was this dark red wine color, and throughout it were these brown "fat globules" in various sizes. Oh, yeah, and that white gelatinous goo that I cannot explain clinging everywhere. It's that same sort of whitish "ah-choo!" material that was sitting in the bottom of the oil pan, too. What is that crap?

    The time is here to deal with the 727. If I can rebuild an engine, then a transmission cannot be that much harder. Just overcome the apprehension and get on with it.

    More pictures to follow, once I get the unit off the hoist.

    PS: Gotta love that Permatex seal!
     
  11. Apr 15, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Transmission status time. It was dis-assembled pretty easily. The hardest part was getting the main pump out of the body cavity, especially since there was Permatex everywhere you could look.

    I followed the instructions in the book and the separate assemblies came out. Haven't started measuring and rebuilding them yet - just sent my body parts out to be cleaned. It started out like this:
    Trans_External_Housing.jpg

    Yup, that's the main body. The tail extension was off at this point. It was painted this funky teal color. It's flat (not metallic), so I thought that it might be the secondary AMC engine color. I am unsure at this point. Everywhere I look, I read that Chrysler never painted the aluminum housing, so this was probably a rebuild. Which would not surprise me. Some people / places should not be trusted to perform rebuilds. More on that later.

    Before I started, I took one clear picture so that I know what I'm working towards. It's like using a selfie to perform advanced thoracic surgery, but it is what I had available:
    Trans_Before_Teardown.jpg

    There are also a couple of oddities that are not mentioned in the book. Please forgive me for diving into transmission talk here - you can skip it if you're not so inclined.

    On a standard 727, the extension housing is held on with (among other assorted bolts) a snap ring that hides in a special access hole, only accessible once you take the rubber transmission mount off. On my short-tailed version, that access slot does not exist at all. I start panicking - how do I get the tail off if there's no slot to get the clip off? Well, it seems that once you unbolt the housing from the main, it just slips off. And then things get strange from there. You're supposed to have the bearing (where the snap ring sits) attached to the output shaft. In this transmission, no such luck. The bearing sits in a channel in the extension housing, held in with a snap ring of its own. And it's a funky bearing. It's not tapered, like a wheel bearing. It is parallel, uses ball bearings instead of rollers or needles, and the balls are held captive in a plastic cage. Anybody out there seen one of these? Or know where I can get a new one?

    I may also need to get a new <I don't know what it is called yet> that lives under the rear "Low/Reverse" band. The surface where the band lives is all rough, not the way I would expect it to look. I'd swear it was rusted at some point, but I could be wrong. And it isn't a proper texture that was factory applied. It looks worn and pitted...

    As for not trusting a rebuild place. Well, this one was very ugly. Lots of little shim washers that I read should have been there are missing. There's goopy piles of Permatex everywhere. Here's a fun one for you. There's an actuating lever over the kickdown servo/piston. You can see it in the above picture, still holding onto the front kickdown band. The lever is big, you can't miss it. And it's held in with a smooth pin, about 3/8 of an inch in diameter, with two grooves at one end. And the pin is held in place with a small plug that has a square quarter inch indent (think of your diff drain plug here). The two grooves are *supposed* to have at least one O-ring. The book says that if there is no ring, expect massive amounts of leakage. Well, there's no ring here. And there's CLEAR SILICONE CAULK on both sides of the rod, and also filling the square opening. It clearly didn't stop the leak, kids.

    Let's just say (as further evidence of shenanigans) that the nut that holds the output yoke cradle thingie to the output shaft (this isn't a slip yoke model) is barely finger tight and may have been loose when this thing last was running. I found places where old gaskets were not removed before new ones were placed over them, so you got uneven sealing, if you sealed at all.

    At the end of this build, I won't be a transmission expert, by any stretch of the imagination. But I will have slain the ancient dragon that lives behind the accursed bell housing. I will be, as was written, galumphing home once done.

    LATE ADDITION: I just ordered some more parts for myself. New thrust washers and such, a new bearing for the output shaft, a new Neutral Safety Switch and a new set of rollers/springs for the rear overrunning clutch. No point putting back in used parts if I can get these new and cheap...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  12. Apr 15, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Oh, one more thing. This transmission is MISSING the speedometer gear completely. I have the cable and associated parts, but no driven gear.

    The 727 has two options that are close. One is a 31 tooth, the other is a 33 tooth model.

    Problem is this: if I use 195/70R14 tires, then I need a 32.5 tooth. If I go for the 195/75R14 tires, then it's 31.5 tooth. This uses the 3.07 differential gearing I have, plus the 13 tooth drive gear that is universal in the A727 output shaft.

    Any suggestion as to which way to go?

    [EDIT: I went with 15 inch wheels in the end (see further down), so the size isn't as important an issue here as *where to get a whole new gear* will be]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
  13. Apr 15, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Jeff, which comes out closest arithmetically?

    If you don't have any more significant digits, the rule is to round off <whatever>.5 to the nearest even number. So 31.5 goes to 32.

    It's arbitrary, but the rule is meant to prevent bias in any round-off error. Your actual tire diameter will matter quite a lot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  14. Apr 16, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Tim, I guess what I was looking for is something along the lines of "it's always better to be under than over when it comes to the gear." No hard and fast rules, just a sort of Rule of Thumb.

    Seeing how easy it is to get to this thingie, I may just put off getting one until I purchase tires and measure them.

    Or I could just use a GPS based speedometer / odometer and leave the plug in there without the gear. Not what I want, but it is always an option.
     
  15. Apr 16, 2020
    ojgrsoi

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    I would consider measuring the tires and then purchasing them. As you may be aware the size tire you run greatly depends on your ability/agility to install the tire under the rear fender opening. I think I read you have a C model and have 14" wheels which may be slightly easier to mount on the rear axle. I believe you will be happier with the tallest tire you can get.


    I think your GPS speedo is a great option unless you are restoring to original.
     
  16. Apr 20, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Let me start by saying that if you thought old motor oil had a bad smell, then don't let a bucket of transmission fluid sneak up on you in a dark alley. My garage now reeks from head to toe (and me, at times, too) from that crap.

    I have to say that I don't know exactly why I was afraid of what was in the transmission. There may be parts, but most of them are locked in assemblies and only need measuring (and replacement if blown). The number of user replaceable parts is kind of low. That may be the only PLUS side of things.

    On the DOWN side, well, there's a lot. First off, most rebuild kits presume that the only thing you're going to replace are the gaskets, steels and friction surfaces. Makes sense, to some degree. But you don't get all of the seals. The kit I got, which is one of the Master Rebuilder kits, doesn't come with things like replacement thrust washers (which set spacing) or the *inner* seals on pistons. Picture a doughnut where you get the seal around the perimeter, but not the inside of the doughnut. Odd, right? Second, the packages in the kit do not have labelled parts. You get a bag of gaskets and O-rings, but they are not marked as to which is which. And, of course, the kit supports several versions of the same transmission, so some parts don't get used. What's a puzzle when some of it is left in the box at the end? As a beginner, how do you know if you get it right? Especially if you're not mentored? Third, and this out of my control, is that you never want to have an odd design. When you look at the back of the manual I have for the transmission, the part number that I have is not listed. It's a custom number, of course, for transmissions made for Postal Jeep units. Not expected to be in civilian life, so I have to wing some of it. Meh.

    Enough kvetching.

    I started with the oil pump assembly - that was a mess. There are only 2 moving parts, but the unit had been treated poorly at the last rebuild shop. It took me 2+ hours and four razor blades to get off all of the three gaskets that were on it. No wonder she leaked oil from all sides - the pump wasn't flush against anything with those clumps of gasket on it. Drove out the old main bushing (which was worn unevenly) and replaced it with a new one from the kit. The oil seal (which was leaky) came out and was replaced with a touch of Permatex #2 just on the mating surface. Then I took out the two main rotors / gears, cleaned 'em, measured for clearance, and then lubed them for re-installation:
    Trans_Pump_Gears.jpg

    Last part was to put the cover back on and torque it back to spec. I am so happy that I accidentally purchased a quarter-inch torque wrench. It sat alone and unloved when I was rebuilding the engine, mainly because nothing is calibrated in inch-pounds. Here in this world, everything is in that scale. Whew!

    Trans_Pump_Rebuilt.jpg

    On the right side are the pump ports. You can see the dark stains where years of gasket crud sat undisturbed. Now, she's nice and flat.

    Pump isn't finished, though. There's a thrust washer that needs replacing, and I had to order those separately from the rebuild kit. When it comes, we'll be able to drop that on, then snap in the last rings, and we're done.

    I don't have any pictures of the forward clutch pack. It wasn't anything amazing, though. One snap ring, one retainer, four interleaved friction surfaces and four steels, then another retainer, a snap ring and then the apply piston. Getting the piston out was a tricky one. It was held in (no surprises) by a snap ring and retainer. Under this retainer were NINE (of a possible 12) coil springs. So you have to compress the retainer to get the snap ring out, then ease the whole thing apart so you don't get flying parts, and then you're free. Two large C-clamps later and it was apart.

    The springs come out (three on, two off, repeat 3 times) and then you can get the piston out. Once it's out, you brake-kleen the check ball that is captive in the base, replace the outer seal (because you don't get an inner seal), and then slather the whole thing in vaseline. That's what is commonly used in the 727 as an assembly grease. It makes it a little less tricky to get the piston back in (the seal is bigger than the hole right now, so you have to do some shimmying to get it all stuffed in there), but not much. Once the piston is in, then the springs go back, then the retainer, and the return of the mighty C-clamps. If everything goes well, the snap ring goes on, the clamps come off, and nothing flies past your face to hit the ceiling.

    Rest is easy. Retainer, steel, soaked (thick) friction, (repeat 3 more times), top retainer and then wavy snap ring. Poof - you're all done. Except for a thrust washer that doesn't come in the rebuild kit. There's a theme here, for those slow on the uptake o_O.

    The rear clutch pack comes next, and it is much simpler. I start taking it apart, and run into another wall. The top snap ring is easy and the clutch steels and frictions are out. Below that is a spacer - I can't tell if it is plastic or a fiber/resin compound. Doesn't matter - it is cracked and I have to replace it. And, as the chorus sings, "It isn't in the kit!" so I have to get one tomorrow. Below that is a snap ring, retainer, and then another piston. Again, I have the outer seal because nothing evil ever happens to the inner seal. Once I get the parts, that clutch will go back together after I get the ball check valve broken free (see above).

    I have pictures of the rear clutch, as the steels are all crapped to death from something. It isn't friction material; I can't explain what it is. But they're shot and will get replaced when it goes together again. Pictures in the next transmission article.

    Basically, that's it. Change a few O-rings here and there, but nothing else. All of the real machinery is just that - machinery. Gears can't really grind any more . It's measure for bearing wear, examine for major fractures, clean and lubricate.

    Assembly after that, then adjusting the bands and mounting it all back up. Still deciding on whether I want to reuse my Torque Converter or get a new one. Is there a way to test the old one?

    What freaks me out is how many of the little parts were noted as missing as I tear this beast apart. Spacer rings, O rings, etc. It looks like somebody deliberately cut corners with the last rebuild and now I need to undo those mistakes. So I have to pay double attention to the book as you just can't say "out with the old spacer, in with the new".

    What also concerns me is how there's a not-insignificant amount of RUST on the parking lock cam. In a unit soaked in oi, where does any rust come from?

    More as it goes along...
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  17. Apr 20, 2020
    timgr

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    My understanding about the torque convertor - it's probably fine functionally, but full of sediment. AFAIK there's no way to clean it other than to put it back in service and change the oil a few times? Just speculating about this. For the only automatic transmission I've rebuilt, I replaced the torque converter and I was really poor at the time. Fortunately I had an automatic transmission parts store in my town and I could go to their counter and talk. For car parts, it seemed like the LA/OC area had everything you could imagine within freeway drive distance. Boston metro is a major population center, but nothing like that here.

    What I've found and what I've heard from others doing similar jobs on automatics: it's just a matter of taking it apart, replacing the wearing parts, and not putting it together wrong. Was fun at the time, though I didn't appreciate it then. The unfun part was removal and installation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  18. Apr 21, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Philosophical post ahead: you have been warned.

    Rebuilding this Jeep is teaching me things that either I never knew, or things that I knew but never wanted to acknowledge. Right now, looking back, I see that my NYC Type-A personality doesn't work when rebuilding an obscure antique vehicle.

    I try to buy all of the parts I need for a phase in advance. Research everything, buy from several sources, etc. And when push comes to shove, either I have wrong parts, or I need extras that were not in the plan. I saw this happen with the front axle (a huge cascade of changes due to an unavailable tie rod end). Then the disaster that the engine block was (not only seized, and rusted through on two pistons, but a cracked water jacket, too). Now, the transmission is another one of those projects, where I need an extremely rare part (that wasn't part of the plan) and several available but not "common" parts (not found in most rebuild kits). Sets me back another week. Another being the key word in the sentence.

    For those who remember the start of this, the goal was to have it up and running by mid-September. Days slipped, and then days became weeks, became months. We are closing in on a full year at this point. It is as if Neil Gaiman knew about this when he wrote ' “Time is fluid here,” said the demon.' I guess that automobile restoration has it's own calendar, own seasons, own pace. If I had built a Camaro (as a friend suggested), I'd probably be driving it by now. I chose a bizarre fleet vehicle (and one that was a Jeep, no less) so I get yet another lesson in delayed gratification. It is ironic how I used to wait for the mailman to arrive in one of these, and now, I am still waiting...

    Off to pick up almost all of my missing tranny parts. I may just get this all done, if the fates allow.
     
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  19. Apr 21, 2020
    Dphillip

    Dphillip Member

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    I look forward to your updates and I’m really pulling for you to get your Jeep running and driving. I remember earlier you had some difficulties and challenges but you’ve persevered. I came across this photo and thought you could really fine those rare and hard to fine parts here.

    D3162FC6-594A-4EBA-BE3D-9FFCFDCAD92F.jpeg
     
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  20. Apr 21, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    I've seen that photo before. It is like a form of genocide. Same feeling I got when they scrapped my favorite old NYCTA subway cars.

    Then again, our previous president had his Cash For Clunkers program which destroyed useful vehicles. I guess it is nothing new. People name their cars and then unceremoniously junk em when a better option comes along.
     
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