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May Be Overthinking Things

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Labeeman, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. Oct 23, 2019
    Labeeman

    Labeeman Member

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    I'm getting close to having my frame finished and will be starting on the reassembly in the next few weeks. I'm still trying to decide about the suspension and whether to stay with the stock springs which are perfectly fine, or change over to the BDS springs which would give it a 2.5 inch lift. The part that is worrying me is what will change in regards to the alignment/camber and how easy is it to get this adjusted. I guess it would be as easy as going to a reputable alignment shop to fine tune it after I put the suspension on. I am also thinking about putting disk brakes on the front along with a dual master cylinder. The brake kit looks easy enough to install but I have questions when it comes to the master cylinder. I do believe that both of these modifications are good, and really like the look of a slightly lifted jeep and would love the stopping power of the disk brakes. I will also put 11 inch drums on the back which I got from a member of the forum. I also think that while I have the jeep completely torn down that this would be the easiest time to do this work. What say you?
     
  2. Oct 23, 2019
    Boyink

    Boyink Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tulsa, OK
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    I say the stopping power of 11" drums all the way around - even on the stock master cylinder - is surprisingly good. Unless you expect to be wheeling through wet places the front discs might be overkill.

    Front suspension / alignment issues are negligible. You'll just need some angled shims to set the axle camber and re-check toe-in.
     
  3. Oct 23, 2019
    johneyboy03

    johneyboy03 The green beast

    Quebec, Canada
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    Disk brake is always a good improvement over drum....

    Purist will say stay with drum but the avantages of disk outrun the drum. Self ajusting, self cleaning it make a huge difference on the trail. As soon as you cross a river of a mud hole you will loose all braking power.
     
  4. Oct 23, 2019
    Labeeman

    Labeeman Member

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    As far as angle shins go I do not remember seeing them with the BDS springs. Is this for both axles or just the one or the other?
     
  5. Oct 23, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    I say if you have the $$$ do it now.
     
  6. Oct 23, 2019
    Boyink

    Boyink Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tulsa, OK
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    11" Drums self adjust...

    It's not a purist point of view, discs are better, just saying that for stopping power the 11" drums are remarkably good. And we won't even talk about drilled drums...;)

    Angle shims just for the front as they are purely to correct steering:
    Leaf Spring Shim Kit
     
  7. Oct 23, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    agreed - if you are in a wet climate, then disc may have a definite advantage. Otherwise, its pretty much personal preference and cost. Not so much personal experience but a summary of those that have done a disk swap (search on the site - lots of info and testimony), the stopping power isn't really improved a bunch in dry conditions over 11" drums. Using the correct brake pads (organic?) along with breaking them in hard will help. When you say swapping out the MC - I assume you mean for a dual reservoir MC in place of the single reservoir. There is not difference in stopping power, but there is a safety factor improvement with the dual MC. The 11 inch drums and parts are quite plentiful, cheap and easy to get from FLAPS. They are also all self-adjusting. Concerns with drums would be getting the backing plates that can be a bit of work to find or pay good money to buy refurbished from some of the standard ecj5 vendors.

    My personal testimony in a relatively dry climate is that 11" drums work great running 33s. I have a BDS 2.5" kit and its single handedly one of best improvement I have done...ride quality both on and off road is superb for an old swb cj. The improved flex off road kept me from installing a locker for a couple years as the traction was so much better. I squeezed 33s on with the BDS 2.5 and a slightly longer shackle - I think 31s would be about perfect for the BDS set-up with standard length shackles. In terms of alignment issues - putting some caster wedges between the leaf spring and axle on the front will really help with tracking and steering return - member McRuff on the site makes great ones....Only because its annoying to have to replace the u-bolts etc, I would put them in right from the start - a 5 degree shim would probably work fine even without measuring.
     
  8. Oct 23, 2019
    Labeeman

    Labeeman Member

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    I clicked on the link and there are numerous shims. Which one do I need for my 1963 CJ5? How does this help with the steering? I have seen shims used on the axles for making sure the drive shaft axel was not too steep but never saw anything about steering. I’m just trying to get as much info as I can before I jump off the cliff. Thanks for helping with this.
     
  9. Oct 23, 2019
    Focker

    Focker That's a terrible idea...What time? Staff Member

    WA
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    I have disks up front and 11" drums in the rear. Love it.
     
    Lockman likes this.
  10. Oct 23, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    The shims are not included in the BDS kit. They install on the front axle only and will rotate the the top of the axle/steering knuckle towards the rear of the jeep. When you turn the wheels, the axis that it rotates around is no longer perfectly vertical (which would be a caster of 0). Having a slight top-to-the-rear tilt in that axis will provide a self-correction or self-straigtening to the wheels....that helps it track much straighter when cruising down the roads, as well as when coming out of turn, the wheels will return to center on their own. It will create a slight increase in steering effort - not an issue at all with power - and pretty minor even for those who run manual Ross (like myself). It also helped my jeep get flat-towed much easier as it tracks nice and straight and much less fish-tail etc. Another trade-off is that because it rotates the top of the axle rearward, the the pinon will be rotated downward just a bit, which does not help the alignment between the pinon and the front driveshaft - its a trade-off I think is well worth taking. Typically you are not in 4wd all the time, and typically its more at slow speeds off road. There are quite a few of the standard 4wd vendors that sell shims - I have no personal experience, but from members advice on here - be careful of aluminum shims as they can crack and fall out at an inopportune time. Solid steel shims would be the only way to go.
     
  11. Oct 23, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
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    Shims are for caster. You want at least5 degrees negative. You won’t know what you have until you install your springs and measure it.

    disk brakes up front were cheaper than the drums, so that’s what I did. Chevy half ton backers and calipers and 77 cj5 disks. You want disk hubs instead of drum.

    they are mostly bolt on. The 11” drums are fine best way to check and set caster
     
    Rich M. likes this.
  12. Oct 23, 2019
    Labeeman

    Labeeman Member

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    I just read your response and understand a little better but after clicking on the link about setting the caster I’m back in the dark. I saw a previous response and they suggested 5 degree shims. I saw where a member makes them so I will contact him and get his point of view. I am still wondering about a shim for the rear as I saw a recent video on you tube about a suspension upgrade and he installed shims on the back to help with the drive shaft angle.
     
  13. Oct 23, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    He was not recommending 5 degree shims, but rather 5 degrees caster on the front axle. You must first assemble the suspension and have the Jeep sitting as it would be for use on the road (weight of the engine and body) and then measure what your caster angle is. If it is not close to 5-6 degrees, then figure what shims it takes to achieve that.
    You might be getting ahead of yourself with your build.
    -Donny
     
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  14. Oct 23, 2019
    mike starck

    mike starck Member

    salem,oregon
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    They are also used to correct pinion angle on rear differential.
     
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  15. Oct 23, 2019
    Labeeman

    Labeeman Member

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    Thanks fir clearing that up Donny, I appreciate it. I’m probably am getting ahead of my self but just trying to get a grasp on the suspension before I do it. I’m putting a lot of time and as everyone knows a decent amount of money into the project so I’m just trying to do it right. The suspension can obviously be done as many before me have installed them, so I’ll just keep moving forward and work on the issues as they arise.
     
  16. Oct 23, 2019
    Boyink

    Boyink Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tulsa, OK
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    Well there you go...never had to do that!
     
  17. Oct 23, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Well that explains why SSDutch keeps coming up on the market- No one can afford to keep replacing the rear u-joints! :D
     
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  18. Oct 23, 2019
    mike starck

    mike starck Member

    salem,oregon
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    The only reason I know that is because the jeep dealer had to place shims under the rear axle of my then new 1973 cj5 to correct a terrible growling noise on light throttle. Warranty service bulletin I think. LOL mike
     
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  19. Oct 23, 2019
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
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    Once you know how much caster shim you need contact member Mcruff here. He will make you a steel set. Never use aluminum shims anywhere. Prone to breaking and falling out. Good advice by everyone here so far. All been done, doable the members here will support you if you get jammed up.
     
  20. Oct 23, 2019
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Focker & Labeeman..... Mine's done & It's the Best upgrade I have ever performed on my Jeeps. Money well spent, IMHO......NIGHT & DAY :beer: And.... I Drive her in the rain & on the Hi- way too !
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
    Focker likes this.
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