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Saginaw Power Steering (pics) Please Add Yours!

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Mcruff, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. Feb 7, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
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    3,784
    Saginaw is or was a spin off Manufacturing Company of General Motors located in Saginaw , Michigan that mostly built steering gears & pumps for the GM line of autos. Although Saginaw also built many steering gears & pumps that are also found in other Auto manufacturing lines too.................

    Use whatever gear box you feel like using , not a problem..............the Saginaw gear box just so happens ended up in most if not all of the CJ line after 1973.........parts and pieces are available everywhere which makes it easy to do the conversion.

    Any steering gear and pump will work...........Go for it.
     
  2. Feb 17, 2014
    dubc56

    dubc56 Member

    Illinois
    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    125
    Are there any complications using a newer style gear box?

    I found one, reverse style on a late 90's durango. It has two u-joints and the intermediate shaft attached, and the yard wants $80 bucks...seems too good to be true!
     
  3. Mar 6, 2014
    stearns.mongo@gmail.com

    stearns.mongo@gmail.com New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    Here's a pic of my power steering set up. Due to the great big PTO winch sitting up front between my frame rails I couldn't use a typical Jeep power steering setup on my CJ5. And I think this works just perfect... doesn't sacrifice any space between the frame rails and with the tie rod end flip the steering geometry is just about ideal.

    [​IMG]

    I had to move the shock to the back side of the axle for clearance, but overall I think it makes a really clean install.

    [​IMG]

    This is a steering gear off of a 1978-79 Ford Bronco which came from the factory with the pitman arm forward. The pitman arm is again for the 78-79 Bronco with a 3" lift. I removed the front shackle and cut the eye off the old springs so I could stuff the axle up as far as I could to ensure I had clearance when the suspension bottomed out:) So this represents an absolute worst case scenario as my new springs provide a 2~2.5 inch lift.
     
    melvinm likes this.
  4. Mar 7, 2014
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    Jun 2, 2009
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    2,104
    I can't tell from the pictures, you must have the Ramsey wide drum winch if you couldn't fit the PS unit in the front.
     
  5. Mar 7, 2014
    stearns.mongo@gmail.com

    stearns.mongo@gmail.com New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
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    14
    My winch is a Koenig model 100 and it does have a very wide drum with about a mile of cable on it:) It sits down below the bottom of the frame rails. The PTO shaft for it can be seen in the second picture just below the radiator outlet.
     
  6. Mar 15, 2014
    davistroy

    davistroy Grasshopper

    Marietta, GA
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    Jul 30, 2009
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    melvinm likes this.
  7. Jul 2, 2014
    bcurtman

    bcurtman Member

    Rosebud, MO
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    Jan 8, 2014
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    283
    Here's mine. Like the one a couple of posts up-thinking outside the box, errr, frame. Mine is a Scout II box with an aftermarket tilt column, and my angles on the shaft turned out really good.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    melvinm likes this.
  8. Jul 17, 2014
    CJ5sandiego

    CJ5sandiego New Member

    Escondido, CA
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2014
    Messages:
    42
    Here it is.. Saginaw power steering box mount (4 bolt)..wasnt too bad, reinforced the outside of the frame with 1/4" plate, used the fire wrench to cut holes through the frame, placed the box where we wanted it, used some round stock to go all the way through the frame and support plates.. boxed in and gusseted the backside.. came out clean and extra strong which we like ;)
    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
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    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
  9. Sep 1, 2014
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    89
    Did this P/S swap a little over a year ago. Used a Saginaw reverse steering box from an astro van mounted behind the crossmember with a DJ column and an astro int. shaft. Swapped the astro 3 bolt housing for a 4 bolt and mounted the steering box to an inner 1/4" plate with a 3/16" outer plate that mounts around the frame. I was able to use the holes already in the frame with some of the bolts going through both plates, the frame and into the steering box and the rest bolting the plates to the frame. No drilling, cutting or welding to the frame. It's tight but it fits nice, trail tested and works great

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
    melvinm likes this.
  10. Dec 23, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
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    3,784
    I've had several folks ask questions about my Power Steering install in my old 65 CJ and also asked why I never posted pictures here in the Steering Section..........so I thought it would be best suited to do as they asked and post some pictures grouped together in one thread and hopefully help some people with their own builds..........Ross to Power Steering probably is one of the best mods for an Early CJ........I went from Ross to Manual Saginaw years ago (which was a mistake) since the manual Saginaw was only slightly better than the Ross..........perhaps with a stock width tire it would have been fine but anything larger and especially off road it’s a real workout. When I started to replace my steering I first looked at a later CJ about 1980 and took some notes not only component wise but also the angles that were factory engineered. AMC of course took over in the early 70's and along with that change came some upgrading of the Old CJ from 40's to 70's technology in steering , brakes & suspension.
    My goal was to take the old manual Saginaw steering out and install a later Power steering system while leaving the Warn Winch in the same location........not an easy task since the Power Box is much larger and the Winch was already against the manual gear. At the same time I was also installing Holbrook springs and since they are known to be super flexy off road but also known to be pucker up scary on the pavement at highway speeds I thought a CJ type sway bar with disconnects would also be a great addition..........most folks said there was no room for a sway bar but that was not the case! At the same time a D-30 front end was going in there which helped being it was 3 inches wider. So while looking at these photo's you'll have a better Idea why the mounts were done the way they were.
    I believe the best power steering box for the conversion is the 4-bolt Saginaw #800 HD steering gear which just so happens is what AMC used in most if not all of their Jeeps up until a few years ago......this gear has been around since the late 60's in the GM full size lineup and is still manufactured and supported today which just goes to reinforce the popularity and longevity of this steering gear. It really is an over kill in a light weight CJ , but really shines when larger tires are added along with a 1000 lbs. of additional people , camping or hunting gear.
    Getting the proper mounting angle to the steering column is important to minimize joints and bind, getting the proper mounting location forward of the axle is also important. Getting the right Pittman Arm and it's relationship not only in drop , but height and clearance to the spindle to either minimize or eliminate "Bump Steer" is also important........getting the box mounted high enough to keep it a way from damage should also be addressed. And last making sure you have clearance between the Pittman arm and tie rod at the straight ahead position at full suspension compression when the axle with forward shackles will articulate forward as much as .750".

    There are plenty of methods shown in this thread to get your Power Steering box mounted...........this is just but one.


    [​IMG]
    Old Saginaw Manual gear box.
    [​IMG]
    in order to get the gear box in the right place a 4"hole needs to be cut in the cross member, also the right side previous plating & mount from the manual gear box had to be removed while cutting deeper into the frame rail to make room for the larger Power gear box. Flat bar Gussets were also installed in the cavity between the outside rail and new 3/8" plate to prevent the hollow rail from collapsing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    Due to the Diamond plate trim & pull hook the Allen bolts had to come in like this.
    [​IMG]
    With the 3/8" plate imbedded into the frame rail and angled the gear will clear the Warn Winch and has a good angle to the firewall.
    [​IMG]
    Cavity for steering shaft and Sway Bar Mount.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    There is enough room to squeak the gear box forward enough to get the Lines to exit into the engine compartment
    [​IMG]
    While setting this up its a good Idea to check your clearance between your Pittman arm joint and the tie rod below under full compression.......the front axle will move forward by as much as 3/4" of an during that cycle and while in the straight ahead position a collision of the two components is possible.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Welded Up!
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    Sway Bar & steering brace mount.
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    Sway Bar on drivers side can be seen of course it would be hooked up to quick disconnects for off road. These plates were added to strengthen the front horns for Winching.....the weld will catch the front cross member tabs and transfer the pull farther back into the chassis.
    [​IMG]

    And that just about does it! Good Luck on your Project!
     
    Danefraz likes this.
  11. Feb 20, 2015
    IRQVET

    IRQVET Bubbaification Exorcist

    Tallahassee, FL.
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    Feb 5, 2015
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    680
    Does anyone know if I pulled a Saginaw off a two wheel drive S10, is it the same thing as a Saginaw off the same model but a 4 wheel drive? Would it work? Saw one at a Junk yard today.
     
  12. Feb 23, 2015
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Rockauto shows the same steering gear for S10 from 1982 to 2004. It does not specify 2 or 4 wd.
     
  13. Apr 8, 2015
    commanlerwrangdo

    commanlerwrangdo Member

    Cleveland, Ohio
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2014
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    470
    Nice work Tarry! Simply beautiful. You sir, are a master fabricator! Hats off to you. I'll have to take pics of my 61, as they did the power Saginaw in a whole different way.
     
  14. Jan 24, 2016
    metal_miner

    metal_miner New Member

    Elko, NV
    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    26
    Is the lower steering column mount at the floor considered highly structural or just to simply support the column from excessive movement? I have the removable floor plates so I'm thinking about the best way to secure the lower mount, but still maintain the functionality of the removable floor plates. I was also considering building a bracket off the firewall like one member showed on this thread.
     
  15. Jan 24, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    All of the above.............It can be removable and be attached to your removable floor sheet metal as long as it is stiff enough to act as a landing point for the end of your column to rest upon ( up and down ) and yet be strong enough to handle the steering motion coming from the steering wheel that is changing direction at that point via a Universal joint on it's way to the steering gear.............in the picture below only 1/2 of the clamp is shown to hold that end of the column.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Jan 24, 2016
    metal_miner

    metal_miner New Member

    Elko, NV
    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
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    26
    tarry99:
    The last picture you posted is really helpful - thank you. Did you reuse your captive nuts on the backside of your floor board or did you through-bolt with new nuts and washers?

    Once I get my engine set I may decide to have the steering column exit higher up the firewall to have less sharp angles between the steering shaft sections. I still need to brace my firewall for hanging pedals so that could also be an option to which to tie the column.

    Here's my project: metal_miner Kubota swap
     
  17. Jan 24, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    I did reuse the captive nuts....never seen a reason to change them..........the early dash and column mount pretty much dictates where that column goes , if it exits higher on the engine side that gets the steering wheel more in your lap........most like to poke a hole up higher in the dash, much like the later Jeeps did after 72...........You should be fine on the angle at the U-joint either way as long as your joint starts right at the firewall face.....

    As far as a brace for your firewall , take a look at that second photo again........most of the force the swing pedals create is cancelled by the brace on the end of the pedal set inside that is attached to the cowl above. Then a small plate made out of .125 metal like this one shown below is all you need out front to stabilize the MC & Booster on the firewall.

    Looks like a nice Diesel conversion..........Good Luck!
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Jan 27, 2016
    jeepstar

    jeepstar Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sheboygan
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    working up the nerve to commit to a power steering conversion on my 70cj5. I have all the parts. the only thing holding me back now is fear. any reason why this shouldn't be attempted?
     
  19. Jan 29, 2016
    jeepstar

    jeepstar Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sheboygan
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    ive been reading about "too big of a box" and when you make small steering adjustments you could end up in the ditch or worse, cross the centerline. is this being blown out of proportion? the steering box in question is from a 1986 cj7.
     
  20. Jan 29, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    "Too big of a box?" Not sure I understand that term!.............Probably more so talking about the steering gear's internal ratio...........meaning once a steering input signal is given at the steering wheel , how fast or at what ratio is the sector shaft / Pittman arm responding to that input signal?

    Some gear boxes are fast , and some are slower, that gets determined by the engineer that builds the car.........not one gear is the same as the next unless it came out of an exact same vehicle...............Some boxes can be valved to be what is called a variable ratio.......which is what is normally preferred in a short wheelbase vehicle.

    The term "Slow in the middle and Fast at the edges" is what most steering gear people refer to........this means that going down the road in a straight ahead position.......the sector shafts reaction to the steering input is slow and thus helps the short wheel base vehicle to travel in a straight line.........conversely once the motion signal at the steering wheel is increased to make a turn , the internal ratio becomes faster to aid in that turn.......
     
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