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My CJ2A/3A/M38 +12"

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Streeetch, Oct 31, 2015.

  1. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    Hey guys,
    Thought I'd post my build thread here, I'm very eager to learn from everyone who had built and modified the vehicles over the years... these first few poats will be a cut and paste affair from expedition portal. Hope you enjoy!

    After owning a few different jeeps over these past several years, i decided to try something a little different; albeit a shameless ripoff of some of the other great builds documented elsewhere (metcalf's "Rango", namely.)

    There will be a several things I will be doing differently , but that is my main inspiration, along with John Cappa's "Garage Project GPW" in JP Magazine. My overall goal is to have a low flatfender jeep that can cruise back roads as well... I don't have any delusions of making this a comfortable long-distance cruiser, but it needs to be able to handle short road jaunts.

    Luckily I have a handful of Jeeps from which to choose; a 1948 CJ-2A that I picked up from my neighbor, another early flatfender that had already been disassembled, and a CJ-3B frame with a 2A body sitting on top. I am also picking up a CJ-3A and an M38 on monday, one of which runs... which doesn't really do me a whole lot of good, considering I will be totally redoing everything anyways. It was nice to be able to actually drive it around though, my first experience actually in a flat fender.
    So far here's what I've accomplished... Since I'm 6'6", the flat fender jeeps don't lend themselves to my frame, in stock form anyways. I've wrestled around with just how much stretch I want, and basically decided on going 12". I have a CJ-7 that we're building for my little brother, and used to have an '86 CJ-7 that was my first jeep, and i like the proportions of them and they are fairly comfortable.

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    After checking the frames that I had, I decided to use the CJ-3B frame because they are stronger, and don't have the two separate plies of metal to try and weld to. That, and the frame of the blue jeep appears to have about 9 or 10 separate HACKED frame repairs over the last 67 years... I started out by taking as many measurements that I could to ensure that the wheelbase was the same side-to-side, that the diagonal measurements were good, and closely inspecting every square inch of the frame for cracks, buckling, etc. I removed the welded on tow bar, a cool Koenig PTO winch and welded on mount, the motor mounts, batter tray, the mount on the bottom of the frame for the stock brake/clutch linkages, the nasty bellcrank mount and hacked in steering stabilizer mount. The rear bumper/pintle hitch mount setup in the rear will be getting fixed/reinforced, but i decided to leave that alone while i have the frame cut up... like I said, I really want this thing to be somewhat roadworthy, and I don't want to tweak/warp this frame while doing the stretch.

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    I figured it would be worth the $200 to have the frame sandblasted... that is, after i spent all week trying to rent one from the local rental yard, I explained to him what I was trying to do, and he casually mentioned that a guy that worked there blasted on the weekends... "well why didn't you say so in the first Place?!"
    Upon picking it up, i was surprised just how good of shape the metal is in, considering its age. I know that the metal in these frames isn't the greatest, strengthwise, so I will be addressing these issues. I wrestled around with having a custom frame made, but I hope (maybe I'm dreaming) that with enough boxing, adding tube, etc. this frame will do just fine, especially once I build a cage and attach it to the frame.

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    A trip to the metal yard yielded some 4"x2" .188" wall tube, that, according to my preliminary measurements, should just "tap right in" to the frame rails, so i picked up 12' of it and started to prep the frame by creating several rosette weld holes. I also welded the spring and body mounts, whose rivets would interfere with the inside of the frame where the tubing will go, and then cut the rivets. I used my fancy new cold saw to cut the frame... WOW, I am amazed at just how well that thing works, compared to a regular old chop saw...

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  2. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    once I got the frame cut in two, I tried putting the box tube inside the frame and it wouldn't go. at all. I checked the measurements with caliper, and found that I was lacking about .050" on the right-hand side, and nearly .170" on the left! I'm not sure why there was a discrepancy between the two sides, but I think that upon cutting the frame, that may have relieved any tension within the channel, along with welding on the body/spring mounts. I thought perhaps we could help the cause by using a porta-power to expand the upper and lower rails, but didn't want to get crazy and tweak anything.
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    Well, that didn't really do much that I could tell, so onto the grinder... I was kind of frustrated that this thing didn't just "slap together", but things rarely do, I suppose. I tried doing this as accurately and cleanly as possible, with a 4-1/2" grinder anyways... I scribed a line where it needed ground, because I wanted to preserve as much material as possible, seeing how this tubing would BE the frame in between the front and rear halves.
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    Finally, about 12:30 this morning, I decided that once I got the right-side fitting like I wanted, I would bring the other frame extension down to the local machine shop and have them take .085" out of each section that will be meeting the frame. In retrospect, I probably should've just done it myself, but after going through 3 grinding discs and about 2.5 hours... it may not have been such a bad idea.

    As of today, I tried my hand at boxing in the front frame rails... I'm guessing that this area around where the steering box will go must be extremely accurate, considering the box should be mounted through the frame, with two VERY parallel plates? I considered actually "BOXING" it in with a different size tube than the frame extensions to ensure everything was as parallel as possible... hopefully this will work though.
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  3. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    well I did a bunch of tacking this evening... turns out I only have a 15 amp breaker in my garage, so the welding was an exercise in frustration... especially since my brother came over and we had two lights, an air compressor, grinder, stereo, and a power strip charging batteries. oh well, hopefully i'll have 220 in a subpanel out there soon enough.

    the frame came out great! after I picked up the driver's side rail from the machine shop, I only had to take a tiny bit more out of the corner to get it into place... then it was a bunch of clamping, and about 80 tack welds. I did manage to weld one of the rosette welds and a few stitches on one corner. my thinking with this frame is, if everything was square before I cut it, as long as those same preliminary measurements are still square, everything should be kosher. I got another boxing plate cut out, and ready to be tacked as well.
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    my plans are to do the typical "sweet flatfender" drivetrain... buick v6 (if I can find one), SM420 (just bought one), dana 18 (already have one, or 4), CJ-7 narrow track dana 30 as soon as we find a wide track axle for my brother's jeep, and the original dana 44 from the rear of the CJ-3B with wheel adapters (spacers). I can't wait to get these other two jeeps home on Monday and figure out what else I can use from them. the M38 already has a Saginaw conversion, so I should at least be able to use the steering gear and perhaps some of the shaft/column, etc. I really dig that auxiliary battery box on the cowl, and the tool indents on the side of the body. as far as the stretch, I think i'm going to sacrifice this piece of junk to cut up and use for mockup purposes... of course, i'll save anything worth salvaging, but man this thing is eaten up:

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    the thing had the floors replaced once, with what appears to be some old signs? there were patch panels riveted over the cancer, and all sorts of other debauchery. BUT, at least it has a title!
     
  4. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    today was an awesome day... we picked up both jeeps, in fact drove one of them up onto the trailer, and drug them both home. my brother and i tooled around in the grey one for a while, and i took my dad for a drive as well. wow, i can see why people are so in love with these little things! as much as i hate how they butchered that grey one, it actually makes it not so bad to get in and out of... haha
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    yes, that is an elementary school desk chair...
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    it runs, albeit without any advance on the distributor, it sounds like.
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    the M38 is not in very good shape. it's pretty much on par with the rest of the bodies that i have. i'm not sure which route i want to go with it, because there are some cool M38 only things that i really like:
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    the tiny glove compartment.
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    the filler neck protector.
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    the auxilary battery box.
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    and the awesome gauge panel, that i think i'll use, regardless of which tub i use.
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    this one also has power windshield washers, which i think may have been added later, but it actually looks like a clean install, so it may have been factory.
    but the best part of the whole thing, was this...
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    a warn overdrive! i didn't notice it the first time i went out there, but as we were trying to dislodge the jeep from the dirt and mud, i noticed 3 shifters in the vicinity of the t-case!
    it actually has a different end cap from the other warn units that i've seen... according to hermtheoverdriveguy, there's an option to run a PTO behind the overdrive unit itself? i wonder if that's what i have.
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    i also figured out the mystery V8 sitting in (on the front axle) the frame of the M38... it's a Ford small block, most likely a 289 or 302. boy if i did use that, things would get TIGHT, QUICK. with it just laying in there, the hood closes, even with a taller air cleaner on it. but the oil pan is probably around 6" below the frame, and interfering with the front axle BIG TIME. speaking of front axle... check out these hubs:
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    does that look like an International "IH" to anyone else?
    i don't want to start making plans to sell any of this stuff before i build one for myself, but i could probably make a few bucks off some of those M38 parts, seeing how they only made them for a couple of years... and i also have this thing about combining civilian and military jeeps, i don't know why. if i run a CJ spec tub, i would most likely paint it a factory civilian color, and it wouldn't feel right robbing millitary stuff to build a civilian jeep... but if i did use the M38 tub, i would totally do it in OD. only thing is, that tub is HAMMERED.
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    there's bondo probably an inch thick on the passenger side, along with some of the tub being ripped from the factory spare tire/jerry can holder. a LOT of rust is hiding under all that beautiful patina, but i've resigned myself to doing a lot of sheetmetal work, no matter what i do. i can probably make a decent tub out of the 5 that i have, minus the floorboards, which will probably be reproduced by sheetmetal. the full floors from kaiser willys are like $800!
    any input would be appreciated... what should i do with this ford motor? keep in mind that i really would like to run a VINTAGE powertrain, that won't run into a ton of packaging hassles... i know things are tight under these little things, but i really don't want to have to deal with a lot of overheating/nothing fitting/clearancing,cutting throughout this build
     
  5. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    well this weekend went really well... spent most of Saturday boxing the frame and finish welding joints, while my brother stripped the tub that I think we'll use. we have 1/2 of the frame boxed in, for the most part.
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    I put up an ISO post on facebook about trying to find a motor, and came up with a couple of people that MIGHT be interested in getting rid of one, or that would keep an eye out... then a guy messaged me and said he had a Triumph TR7 with a swapped in motor. he did a tow for someone that couldn't pay him, and they gave him the car. we went and checked it out, and were greeted with some cast aluminum Holley Valve covers... it looked like somebody had gone through it , it had newer paint on the block, etc. I checked the casting number on the head, and found that this was a 1978 block and that it was originally a turbo motor. hopefully this means that it has some beefier internals (forged/stronger connecting rods, etc.?) $200 later, I came home with this:
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    has an offenhauser 4 bbl.
     
  6. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    guys, I haven't been able to find out for sure, but for some reason I thought that the turbo motors had beefier connecting rods, and forged cranks. I would like to use the offenhauser 4 bbl intake, any opinions on which carb would be best for this? i'll have to check that carb on the ford motor I have, I remember hearing that the motorcraft carbs from that era work really well on these motors... but i'm almost positive that it's a 2 barrel.

    I did pick up my 1970 offset dana 44 from the junkyard today... i'm still not sure if it's the best one to use, from what I've read this uses one-piece shafts, but they are 19 spline. in order to be able to put a different carrier (locker) in it, i'd have to have custom 30 spline shafts made. right?
     
  7. Oct 31, 2015
    SFaulken

    SFaulken Active Member

    Bellevue, WA
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,178
    That carb on the 289/302 you have a picture of is a Motorcraft 2100 of some sort. Actually a great carb for the Buick V6 (and generally, just a great carburetor.)

    If you want to run a 4 bbl, finding a small venturi Motorcraft 4100 (1.08 Venturi size are generally considered the best of the bunch, for the Buick)

    The Holley 8007 is real popular, 390 CFM and sized well for the V6, or the "Small" 470CFM Holley Truck Avenger is a pretty popular one as well (the one I run)

    I know there are guys running edelbrocks (AFB's) on the Buicks, but I'm not sure which ones. You can still find the 500CFM ones pretty much anywhere that sells carburetors...
     
  8. Oct 31, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
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    Thanks Faulken... I can't help but think that the 4bbl would be superior, especially with the dual port!
     
  9. Nov 1, 2015
    supertrooper

    supertrooper Member

    moreno valley, ca
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    742
    If the axle flange has a big nut holding it on it its 19 spline "tapered axle'' and if the flange is flat it is a 30 spline "flanged axle" . If its a '70 it should be 30 spline.

    Cool project. I wish i streched mine when i had it torn apart.
     
  10. Nov 1, 2015
    supertrooper

    supertrooper Member

    moreno valley, ca
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    742
    Btw sounds like the engine was out of a buick grand national. They were turbo from the factory but i doubt they came with forged internals since they didnt run high boost stock.
     
  11. Nov 1, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
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    The head casting number says it came out of a 1978, probably a Riviera...
     
  12. Nov 2, 2015
    givemethewillys

    givemethewillys Been here since sparky ran it. 2022 Sponsor

    New Kent, VA
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    very cool project, I'll be keeping an eye on this one for sure!
     
  13. Nov 5, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    little update... i got the rest of the frame welded up, cleaned, primed, and painted... glad to be done with that for now.
    i left much of the inner portion unpainted for now, because i think i want to build one more set of plates to tie the
    rectangular tube, the patch in front of it, and the factory boxing all together. and i'll be welding in motor mounts,
    eventually. i also didn't paint much at the very front of the frame due to my front axle relocation... i'll be using
    superlift 1" rear springs at all 4 corners.

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    i'm trying to figure out the best way to incorporate a winch mount, frame extensions, and a saginaw conversion all into
    one tidy setup. the inside of the frame rails are approximately 2-3/4", so i figured with a 1/4" plate to serve as a
    winch mount, that leaves me with 2-1/2"... trouble is, they don't make 2-1/2" tube. they DO make receiver hitch stock,
    however. this is reallly heavy wall stuff, that would actually work pretty well to mount the box itself to, no need to
    worry about piercing the frame and reinforcing the holes with heavy wall tubing.

    i also started messing with this rear axle i picked up... the BOM says it's either a 1969 or 1970 housing with 4.89 gears.
    one piece, 30 spline axle shafts... i figure this is about the best rear i can come up with, since i'll be keeping the
    dana 18 transfer case.

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    i ordered up my springs and all related necessities to mount my axle sometime soon... and tomorrow i'll be headed to SLC
    to pick up a set of wide-trac axles for my brother's CJ7. i will then rob his narrow-trac 30 for this jeep. i figure
    with chromoly shafts, it should be able to handle 35s.

    looks like i need to start saving up for all my adapters to get this drivetrain together... man this stuff is expensive!
    i'm also having a hard time tracking down a flywheel for the buick motor... i see that AA offers one, they say it weighs
    29 pounds. is it true that the original v6 CJ5s had a 75 pound flywheel? shame, i went to grab the one out at the
    junkyard (where i got the axle) and someone had already robbed it, and all the associated clutch parts as well. i'd
    really like to hold out for the heavy flywheel, if at all possible.

    i think that i want to run a few tests on the buick before i pull it... compression/leakdown, etc. just to get an idea of
    what kind of shape the motor is in. i figured that it'd be better to have a means of keeping it mobile until i know that
    i'm ready to put it in between the frame rails.
     
  14. Nov 5, 2015
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,784
    Streeetch

    You asked:
    "but for some reason I thought that the turbo motors had beefier connecting rods, and forged cranks. I would like to use the offenhauser 4 bbl intake, any opinions on which carb would be best for this? is it true that the original v6 CJ5s had a 75 pound flywheel?"

    The turbo motor did have a little better rods , crank , block and heads..............although not really much better than stock. All cast not forged , the crank was upgraded and had large fillets in the corner radius's and were strong enough for lots of street guys with turbo's to put 20 lbs of boost to them before they failed. The block was cast with better materials , The cylinder heads (last 4 digits) casting number 8445 were perhaps the best upgrade as they had raised ports and would flow 160 cfm as compared to there stock counterparts that only flowed 120 cfm , re-worked turbo heads will flow upwards of 180-200cfm.

    Regarding the manifold you have , it will work as long as it was built for a later even fired Buick V6......as mentioned the ports are taller and the water passages will not line up between the old and new motors. The 390 cfm carb can work quite will.........but does require some tuning.

    Most of the stock motors and turbo cranks I've seen had spun rod bearings.......part of the turbo issue with fuel delivery and timing which resulted in detonation.

    The stock odd fired flywheel ( which will not balance to your even fired motor) weighed about 52 lbs.

    I have available a never finished real serious Buick 231 V6 even fired ex turbo naturally aspirated motor , with aftermarket steel forged crank, Scat Rods, 8445 reworked heads and ferrea stainless valves that would easily be in the 275 HP range.
     
  15. Nov 12, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    Quick update:

    UPS dropped off some goodies for me the other day.

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    4 Superlift 1" rear springs, ubolts, shackles, bushings ready to go in...

    But first, I had to buy (yet) another Jeep tub:

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    This was actually the tub that was sitting on the frame I was using... it's a 3B tub, but the sheet metal is so good, I think I'll just use it and convert the tub to 3A style... anyone need a good windshield frame and soft top for a 3B?

    I started mocking up the front spring hangers, a 2.5" stretch lined one of the spring hanger holes up perfectly with a factory hole in the frame.
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    I've been trying to figure out how to do a reinforcement for my Saginaw conversion, make a winch mount, relocate hangers, and build a bumper all at once... I kinda think I need some of the body up on the frame and an axle mounted to do some of that. I'm headed to the metal yard to bit some 1" square tube to brace the tub for cutting... and some 1/4" plate for a winch mount. Stay tuned!
     
  16. Nov 12, 2015
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
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    3,784
    Your right, Other than a mock-up your a long ways away from mounting a steering gear to that chassis at least in a permanent sense. You'll need the body on there......the location and angle of the steering column.The springs and axle mounted , the bare motor and exhaust in place , a radiator and grill is always nice as well as 600-800 lbs of ballast up front to get the vehicle at the correct ride height.........this will at least get you to the point of choosing the correct box location , angle and Pittman Arm.
     
  17. Nov 12, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    33
    Yeah, I'm just trying to avoid any unnecessary double work. I got to stripping the 3B tub... turns out its a Kayline top, which I heard were way better than bestops. The vinyl is in perfect shape, and I think the windows are saveable. What would something like that be worth? No current listings on these on ebay.

    This body was used on a rat rod project by somebody locally. They built it, and the person they built it for flaked out. I think they're going to put an old pickup cab on it instead. The middle of the floor was cut out, along with most of the rear, to facilitate the mounting of a Jaguar IRS setup. I'll still have a ton of work into the body, but like I said earlier, it's in way better shape than anything else I have. The guy said I could also grab the original motor, too. I have no idea what kind of shape it's in, but that will be available soon, if anybody is interested.

    I am in the process of relieving the windshield frame from the body as well. It's in great shape, along with perfect glass!
     
  18. Nov 12, 2015
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
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    You will have to chuck the body up on there and mockup your engine and transmission transfercase. Put the springs in relative locations with axles and see how it all fits before the steering box gets mocked up. Like tarry said you also need to have the exhaust you're going to use as well. All of it will probably move around so just tack it up and buy a lot of cut off wheels and flap disks.
     
  19. Nov 13, 2015
    Streeetch

    Streeetch New Member

    Rock Springs, WY
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
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    33
    I took your guys' advice and started on the body. There's still a bunch of rust, especially around the toolbox area! I cut it out after I carefully removed the soft top and windshield frame (and about 50 soft top buttons), along with every bracket, gauge, switch, etc.
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    I have a plan; use some of a 2A body to patch up the center floor area and floor riser, buy new hat channels and passenger side lower side panel, fabricate new floor pans, and patch the few other rusted out areas...

    I also started sectioning the cowl area of the 3B tub. Every measurement I've taken this far has led me to the conclusion that jeep did in fact use the exact same cowl from 3a to 3b, just with the extension panels and new firewall.
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    I'm also going to order up a new 2A dash because I prefer the gauge cluster to the single gauge of the 3B.
     
  20. Nov 14, 2015
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
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    You have a good start and a lot of parts to do several mock ups. I would not do anything to the body quite yet except cut it in half where you want to add the 12". Tack in some temps or even clamp them in place to get the correct length. I would then temp up the springs and the axles, then throw the 2 piece body on there. You may have to move spring and shackle mounts to place the axles and the springs in their temporary respective positions. You're also going to want to bolt on the fenders and grill just to make sure it fits right.

    Once you get this all temped up, you're going to need to fit the engine and the transmission/transfer case. You don't need any of it to work, you don't need a flywheel and you can ignore driveshafts for now. You're just looking to see how much offset, if any you need and clearance from the grill and firewall. You also need to know about the headers. The 225 cj5 headers from hedman that are cheap don't fit well in 2a/3a's They work and I run them, but I have had issues with them. They really are the PITA feature of fitting a 225 in a 2a. YMMV.

    This is just the very beginning. I would finish weld NOTHING at this point. I would do NO bodywork other than whats necessary for fit up. There are details that will need to be factored in to all this like swinging pedals, clutch linkage, cable or hydraulic, gas tank rear or underseat, radiator etc.

    Some of us have done this before and we like to help, so keep posting pics and your progress.
     
    Streeetch likes this.
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