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Odd Fire Rocker Arm Question.

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Tom_Hartz, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. Apr 22, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    North Carolina
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    I am getting close to picking up a 67 CJ5 from the original owner. The Jeep also will come with a clean trailer and a bunch of parts.
    He told me he may have installed the rockers in the wrong positions and that may be why it took out the valve guides.
    My question is, are the intake and exhaust rocker arms different?
    If so how can I tell what is what?
    I am sure I will be on this site a ton, looks like great info here.

    Thanks in advance.
    Tom
     
  2. Apr 23, 2014
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    Its been a while since I've been under the valve covers, but I pretty sure there are "left" and "right" handed rockers on each shaft. Each cylinder should have one of each on either side of the pedestal.
     
  3. Apr 23, 2014
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Yep there are different angled rockers and if they were placed back incorrectly, it will cause several problems. You need to start with the rocker shafts oriented properly. Now that you have the rig, you will need the FSM (sm1046). Depends on how long he ran it after rocker swap as to whether he damaged the guides. If it smokes real bad then it could be from something else. If the end of the rocker does not set directly over the end of the valve stem then it is in the wrong place. The notch at the end of the shaft must face up and out away from the engine. The left bank notch is at the rear of the engine and the right bank notch is at the front of the engine. Also note that the oil notch in the rocker faces the pedestal. The rocker assy gets its oil from both front pedestals. The bolts for the front pedestals will require a smaller sized shank than the threads so oil can move around the bolts and into the rocker shafts. (just in case someone replaced with wrong bolts). Let us know if you need more help and if you do then pic's may be needed.
     
  4. Apr 23, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Walt, thank you. The PO did say he may have put the drivers side assembly on the passenger side. The Jeep has not run in 2 or more years, so that cut down on the damage.
    I am almost done doing a frame off on a 1969 Bronco for a friend then my toy comes home. I will post up pictures and info when I get the CJ. What a great site and Jeep people.
     
  5. Apr 23, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Ok dumb question. People please don't laugh or flame me. I assume when you say left and right bank that is from the front of the Jeep looking at the engine? Not the drivers seat.
     
  6. Apr 23, 2014
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    It is from the drivers seat looking forward you will find number one cylinder in the front and on the drivers side. The rocker assemblies are switchable as are the heads.
     
  7. Apr 23, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Copy that. Thanks again.
     
  8. Jul 9, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I picked up the Jeep and have some more questions. The PO had the heads redone because of valve guide failure. I was given some old rocker arm shafts with arms along with a ton of other stuff. Comparing the the rockers that are installed on the Jeep to the extra ones I can see some differences. The arms that are installed look good and seem heavy duty. However the ones on the Jeep do not have a notch on the side that would go against the pedestal that bolts to the head.

    [​IMG]

    Also the tips of the rockers are straight so I am concerned about the alignment above the tip of the valve.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    From what I was told these rockers where recommended by Kenne Bell and he seems to know a thing or two about the Buick V6.

    The other strange thing is the notch on the end of the rocker arm shafts. I know they should point away from the engine and that places the oiling hole on the loaded side of the rocker. The shafts that are installed on the engine have notched ground into the end of the shafts not stamped. In order for the oiling hole to be in the proper position the ground in notch is towards the head not away from the engine.

    What do you all think, do I run them as is? I don't want hurt a set of heads.

    Thanks in advance.
    Tom
     
  9. Jul 9, 2014
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Have never installed Kenne Bell rockers but whoever makes the rockers still have to design them to work with the original heads. The oil groove in the rocker is to reduce wear between the rocker and pedestal. Kenne Bell may use a different approach such as a groove vs. notch. To keep the rocker assy as designed you will need to completely dis-assemble the unit and start over. Starting with the shaft oil holes pointing down will put the ground notch in the end (only one end) of the shaft upward. Holding the shaft with the notch end pointing to the rear of the engine on the left side (drivers side) will have the notch pointing out away from the engine. I have a scan of the FSM showing this if you like. This arrangement is required for proper oiling of the rocker assy. DO NOT RUN THE ENGINE THE WAY IT IS SET UP NOW.
     
  10. Jul 9, 2014
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    For those people that don't have the FSM and are in question of what we are talking about, here is the scan from the FSM on the rocker assy.
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Jul 9, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    What does the tip of the rocker that wipes the valve stem look like?...........that should be a nicely ground semi circle looking surface........if its grooved from wear they need to be resurfaced or replaced. Also shimming the rocker shaft to get better alignment of the rockers is also something that is not unheard of but does require some thought and understanding of the valve train.................Kenne Bell ( aka Jim Bell) would have had to make those comments in archived articles years back since although he is still alive hasn't touched a Buick V6 since the 1980's..............TA Performance in Arizona would be you best source for rebuilt Rockers arms & shafts.
     
  12. Jul 9, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I have come to the conclusion I am not dealing with stock parts. Here are some pictures of the rockers.
    The rocker on the right is the one installed in the Jeep. Note it does not have a notch on the side that would be against the pedestal. It also has a oil hole drilled where the rocker shaft is and it points towards the valve.

    [​IMG]

    In this picture you can see the notch next to the pedestal is missing and they are cast steel. The rocker on the right is from the Jeep.

    [​IMG]

    This time the rocker on the left is the one in the Jeep. You can see the oil hole by the push rod is in a different location and the added hole by the valve stem. There is also a added oil groove inside of the shaft area.

    [​IMG]

    Does anyone recognize these rockers?

    Here is one of the rocker shafts from the Jeep. It looks like a quality part and note the oil hole is chamfered.

    [​IMG]

    Here is where some of the confusion is. This stock rocker arm shaft has the notch on the end away from the engine and the oil hole is on the left. So when the rocker is installed the oil hole would be towards the valve.

    [​IMG]

    This stock shaft with the notch away from the engine the oil hole is to the right.

    [​IMG]

    Which one is correct?

    This is the rocker shaft that is on the engine, in order to keep the oil hole in what I think is the proper location the notch will be towards the engine and the oiling hole would be towards the push rod side of the rocker. Is this right?

    [​IMG]

    What do you all feel about me running these parts? The quality looks good however I am still not sure they are set up right.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  13. Jul 10, 2014
    skeely

    skeely New Member

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    maybe you should reinstall the rocker assemblies and cycle the oil pump to verify oil is getting to all parts. running engine without confirming oiling could be expensive.
     
  14. Jul 10, 2014
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Very good point. I hope to get some input on what is right for the oiling holes in the rocker shafts. Then when I do put it back together I will spin the pump first.

    Thanks...
     
  15. Jul 12, 2014
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

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    As a person with a full set of Kenne Bell rolling rockers - they look nothing like those. The pedestals have the proper flow holes, and I have a return on each side blocked to hold more oil in the rocker assembly with it.
     
  16. Jul 18, 2014
    Project71-5

    Project71-5 BACON

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    This has me thinking. IIRC all of the factory rocker arm bolts have the same sized shanks. Is this correct or is does one bolt indeed have a smaller shank than the rest?
     
  17. Jul 19, 2014
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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