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American made HEI

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by 5foxes, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Mar 28, 2014
    5foxes

    5foxes '74 CJ5

    Dayton, Minnesota
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    I'm in the market to replace my Fleebay aquired HEI ignition as well as the plug wire set, so I'm searching for a true american manufacturer of a quality dizzy and internals (wires are easy), needless to say I'd like a reasonable price. Are there any recommendations within the membership? Note: This will be installed on an AMC 232 I6, 1974 vintage. Suggestions are appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  2. Mar 28, 2014
    numbersix

    numbersix Newberg, Oregon

    Oregon
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  3. Mar 28, 2014
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Or a Chevrolet 250/292 I-6 HEI and install the AMC distributor drive gear. Done a couple and it works great. Do an Internet search. Tons of info how to do it.


    Sent from my iPhone
     
  4. Mar 28, 2014
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    :iagree: GM hei is the way to go
     
  5. Mar 28, 2014
    Paladin

    Paladin Have gun, will travel

    Cedar City, UT
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  6. Mar 29, 2014
    5foxes

    5foxes '74 CJ5

    Dayton, Minnesota
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    "Or a Chevrolet 250/292 I-6 HEI and install the AMC distributor drive gear".
    This sounds like the way to go. I used the drive gear off of my original distributor when I installed the cheapo HEI, I could eazily swap it to a new GM dizzy, thanks it's a great idea!
     
  7. Mar 29, 2014
    Jeepenstein

    Jeepenstein Me like Jeep..

    North Central FL
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    DUI stuff is top shelf.. I run it in both my XJ's..
     
  8. Mar 29, 2014
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    check the flaps for a rebuilt one those Chinese engine parts scare me. or the local junk yard pretty sure gm didnt use imported ones
     
  9. Mar 29, 2014
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Suggestions? Drop the HEI distributor. Go Duraspark for the distributor, and stealth HEI or MSD for the module.

    Or use the 250 Blazer HEI distributor (A genuine Delco-Remy HEI distributor) that has an external coil, and an AMC V8 drive gear.

    But I think the whole coil-in-cap design is lame. JMO. Put some air between the components. Plus the Duraspark lets you mix and match the coil, module, wires, cap style etc. that you cannot with the HEI.

    But I would just go used or reman Duraspark. It's a distributor that's made for the AMC 232/258, and it's basically the Ford implementation of the HEI, made for the 232/258. Easy conversion, and all junkyard/parts store parts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  10. Mar 29, 2014
    5foxes

    5foxes '74 CJ5

    Dayton, Minnesota
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    Tim, this makes sense, I think i'd like to go new or reman components, is there more you tell me?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  11. Mar 29, 2014
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    The HEI distributor is a variable reluctance (VR) distributor. The sensor uses the VR principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_reluctance_sensor

    The Motorcraft Duraspark is also a VR distributor. All 232/258/304/360/401 AMC engines from 1978 on used the Duraspark. Unlike the HEI, the Duraspark module and coil is outside the distributor.

    Ford also had a Duraspark II ignition, which used the same distributor body as the Durapark with a big cap and rotor and an EI coil (the coil laminations are the shape of Es and Is, like the HEI coil) which you can mix and match with the Duraspark stuff. This is often called the "Team Rush" or "TFI" or "Juice Box" upgrade for the AMC Duraspark ignition. NB the Duraspark module requires a ballast resistor in series with the module and the coil regardless of the type of coil you use.

    You can use any module that accepts a VR input with a VR distributor. So you have the opportunity to mix compatible parts from different manufacturers.

    What specifically would you like to know? There are dozens of articles on the 'net about upgrades like this. Contributor "JeepHammer" on jeepforum.com has written a lot about these ignition upgrades. He is a controversial figure (banned here?), but I believe he has provided lots of good info if you can separate the factual from the often combative presentation.

    Try reading these for a start -
    http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/i-6-teamrush-upgrade-definitive-669495/
    There are LOTS more posts about this topic on jeepforum - just search.
    http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEIcompair.html
    http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEI01.html

    On my CJ-6, I have a reman '78 Duraspark distributor with Duraspark II base adapter, cap and rotor, Summit HEI-style wires, Pertronix coil (becasue it's round like the original) and Stealth HEI module using a Standard Ignition module from a 350 Chevy. A reman '78 232/258 Duraspark is only about $50 plus core.
     
  12. Mar 29, 2014
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    The GM HEI distributor is the single best mass produced factory supplied ignition system in the history of carbureted internal combustion engines. They ran in almost half the cars and trucks made in the US from 1973 to 1986 We have seen time and time again that the motorcraft ignitions that came on the AMC motors in Jeeps were just plain junk. It is a pretty telltale sign that you can buy an HEI distributor for almost every make of engine now. Yes, some of the cheapy $85 distributors out there coming from China have been less then stellar. If you buy good quality parts, you will generally get a better experience.
    One other important factor is that nearly every Auto Parts store in existence has an hei cap and coil on the shelf. Try going to a store and finding any motorcraft parts from 1978 on the shelf.
     
  13. Mar 29, 2014
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    There are dozens of different combinations of components that will work for these applications.

    Personally, I think I don't have sufficient evidence to make a claim about the superiority of one combination over another. All I can do is look at the arguments for and against specific approaches and make a choice based on my understanding.

    There certainly were plenty of horror stories about aftermarket HEI distributors for the AMC applications. It's not fair to judge all HEI ignition implementations based on these stories, but the conservative approach would be to avoid the HEI for AMC and use the factory Duraspark instead. Electrically, the Duraspark and the HEI operate in exactly the same way - there is no technological advantage of one over the other. It's all about the implementation, and which implementation you favor.

    To me, this seems more like the old Ford vs. Chevy debate, and just as likely to be decided.
     
  14. Mar 29, 2014
    5foxes

    5foxes '74 CJ5

    Dayton, Minnesota
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    Thanks guys, your input is very much appreciated. Tim, in my search I did come across a "JeepHammer" write-up, "THE BEST BANG FOR THE DOLLAR YOU CAN DO FOR A COMMON IGNITION SYSTEM, BAR NONE, IS A CDI MODULE"
    I copied it and checked with a local AutoZone for availability and price. Appears that every item I'd need is stocked within the nearby chain of stores and puts it all available in my store the next day, $400.56 incl. tax. Seems a fair price. [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
  15. Mar 29, 2014
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    My biggest complaint about the Duraspark setup is the way the module is constructed. The circuits are printed on a flexible plastic-like substance, then folded up, then installed in the module box. Anyone see an issue with folding up printed circuits in the long run?

    I've seen way too many failures of the modules where the circuit is folded.
    My former boss was trying to figure out a vehicle that would run fine when cold, and as it warmed up would die, then as it cooled it would restart. Very intermittent though. He finally was able to get it to act up in a work bay after several days of working/driving it. Found the module was the culprit. We cut apart the module and found the printed circuits had failed at the fold. We had a spate of them in the following years that had failed similarly. It's a common issue with the Duraspark modules. If you use that system, I'd highly recommend carrying an extra module (good advice regardless of system).

    The nice thing about Delco HEI is it's simple, uncluttered, and as Daryl pointed out, parts are readily available.


    Sent from my iPhone
     
  16. Mar 29, 2014
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    400 seems reasonable for an ignition? I guess we live in different worlds. I rarely pay $400 for entire Jeep around here if it has an AMC motor in it.
     
  17. Mar 29, 2014
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    About $300 of that is the MSD stuff - all the parts with the 4-digit number PN. The MSD cabling is convenient, but pricey. I bought the 8869 for my CJ-6, but if I did it again I'd clip off the connector from the distributor and use a Weatherpac connector. And the Weatherpac is better/weatherproof/waterproof. You can carry a spare pickup converted to a Weatherpac cheaper than you can buy the MSD adapter cable. And the shielded wire is overkill - just use your electric drill and make 10' of 18 or 20 ga twisted pair from primary wire. Run it inside some heat shrink or vacuum tube and keep it away from the spark plug wires. I wired my Duraspark conversion with used automotive wire from the pick-a-part - I got lots of different colors.

    IMO you don't need a hot coil with the CDI stuff. The factory coil will be fine. Buy two Standard UC12 or UC12X or equivalent and keep one for a spare. Or scrounge some Ford coils at the junkyard.

    Let me repeat, there are many many different ways to go with this.

    The CDI module seems to be the ultimate upgrade for a conventional distributor-driven ignition. My main issue with the CDI is that it is awfully expensive to carry spares. Conceivably you could wire it up so that you could switch to a stand-by HEI or Motorcraft or even Bosch module in case of failure.

    The CDI is pretty nice with a regular points distributor, where you can disconnect the module and run conventional points ignition if the module fails. The points will last a long time - until the fiber block wears out - since the CDI module relieves them of switching the coil, and all they have to do is turn the module on and off. Not many other parts are available for the six-cylinder Delco distributors, however. MSD makes a AMC six-cylinder distributor. The cap and rotor (8014 and 8467) should fit the factory Delco, and would accept the HEI-style wires.

    The points-driven setup possibly has another advantage in that a '74 should have come with points ignition. If you have the old distributor, that would save you a little money. And you could remove the MSD module if you sold the Jeep and it would be in factory condition and still run.

    I'm not recommending the Motorcraft module, but you don't have to use the Motorcraft module with the Motorcraft distributor. That said, my J20 still has the factory Motorcraft module and it's going strong. The HEI module has a reputation for better reliability over the aftermarket replacements for the Motorcraft, however. That's what I'm using on my CJ-6, with a Duraspark distributor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  18. Mar 29, 2014
    Southtowns27

    Southtowns27 Custom Title

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    Might save you some money, but Summit sells their house brand Ignition CD box for $149 with the wiring harness. I've had one of these in my Jeep for years, works great. One of the major manufacturers makes the thing, they just put the Summit sticker on it and sell it for less. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850610/overview/
     
  19. Mar 29, 2014
    5foxes

    5foxes '74 CJ5

    Dayton, Minnesota
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    I didn't say it was reasonable, I said it seems fair, and given the number and the nature of items on the list I think it is.
    I'm also not saying I would be satisfied with, or can afford it $400 either. I see the estimate has a duplicate 8869, so that puts me in the $383 range.
    I have kept the factory points distributor assy. and the coil and am not opposed to reinstalling them if it makes sense but do I understand correctly, the factory style cap may not be the right fit for the 8mm HEI-style wires but the MSD cap and rotor should. And could the MSD CDI module coupled with my factory components still be an improvement over my E-bay chineese HEI?
     
  20. Mar 29, 2014
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor

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    This is where most builds just drop in a small block Chevy and never have to worry about making an ignition actually work because the stock one did and always has.
     
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