How much Horse Power?

I was speaking in generalities..sheesh.
But, it would be possible with some nice Oliver rods and Ross pistons
Or just swap in a SBC like I did

 

[h=2]How much Horse Power?[/h]

OK I'm sorry it is off subject , But we were on the subject of Horsepower right? and for comparison sake I just thought I would take the subject 180 degrees away from the old 4-banger............426 cu in. Hemi Supercharged on methanol , 11.8 Compression, single 44 AMP MSD Mag with grid control , 2300 HP.......that's about 5.4 HP per cubic inch. One of if not the fastest car in the class.........................I am the crew chief on this Race car.

 

Interesting to compare, and shows anything is possible.

The question is, what is the main objective...? For instance, how would the estimated lifespan of an F-head compare with that 2300hp motor - in miles (or in minutes)?

 

I'm glad you embrace the extreme parallels between the two engines...........what we do in Drag Racing to the internal combustion , push rod , overhead valve engines today even amazes me sometimes as we continue to find more Horsepower.
Would the old 4 banger benefit from any of this technology ? Absolutely...........but at what cost to it's longevity?

 

Somtimes it certainly helps to compare opposite extremes in order to gain perspective.
Yet the truth is that no single engine is actually any "BETTER" than any other engine.
They can only be considered as better or worse for a particular application.
I still believe that the Hurricane engine was far far advanced over many other engine designs.
How many other engines can claim a production run of 22 years (1950 through 1971) without significant change ?
So now the Hurrcane remains as a "time proven standard".
Because fuel supplies and road conditions have changed the Hurricane engine is presently outdated.

 

Ken, Wasn't the F head (when it came out) one of the highest rated hp engines on the road?

 

Maybe you are thinking of the L134? Legend has it that the powerful Willys engine was one reason Willys got a Jeep contract in WWII and not Bantam ... aside from the idea that Bantam was a tiny company and thought incapable of sufficient production.

 

Really? Just how much seat time have you had with an F4-134?
Did you pull all this off the internet somewhere?
Inquiring mind would like to know.

 

That's what the Binford 2300h looks like. Nothing like more power...

Sweet beans.

Do you get to run that around here?

Sideways slide some more.

Most memorable track event I went to was Sacramento, Natl's. I think. Big Daddy went up against the green mamba. Blue thunder ran against another rail. Then green an blue ran against each other I think. good old days... And I think that had to be 76 or so. I think in like 83 I went and watched Don Prudhomme(?) top fuel funny car (?) push 297 for a near record. Pit passes are the way to go. That was my last trip to Sacto. Lots changed since.


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Yeah I think you are right Tim.

 

While I did glean the information about the F4-134's RPM preferences off the internets (though now that I've gone through the trouble of digging it up again, it would seem that I'd gotten my figures mixed up. According to what I've found here 2800 is the safe RPM, 3200 RPM is okay in short bursts, and anything higher than that really risks overheating the pistons,) driving mine around would seem to bear it out. The engine seems at its happiest if I limit it to 2800 RPM or less (the first aftermarket part I installed was a tachometer,) and that equates to around 50 MPH with the tires I've got on there. Sure, I hit the low 3000s accelerating up to 3rd gear, but mine just doesn't seem to like being above 3000 RPM ... it feels very much like it's making more noise than power at that point.

And that's fine with me. It's already fairly spirited on backcountry blacktop and dirt roads.

 

No the Hurricane was certainly not one of the most powereful engines of it's time.
There were several V-8's by 1950.
The Hurricane was developed in 1949 and made available in 1950 for Willys Pick-ups and SW's.

What Tim stated about the 1940 military LRV contract concerning the Go-Devil is historical fact.
Here's some more facts about the L-134.
Willys engineers ran the protype Go-Devils @ 4000 RPM for 100 continuous hours non stop without failure during their tests.

The Go-Devil and the Hurricane certainly have their good features such as a forged steel crankshaft, etc.
And by todays standards they also have some not so desireable features such as the heavy castings etc.

Yes the 134's are especially undersquare.
That said there is one engine that is even slightly more undersquare.
As you know the Willys 134 has a 3-1/8" bore and a 4-3/8" stroke.
The 230 Dodge Power Wagon has a 3-1/4" bore and 4-5/8" stroke.

 

"There were several V-8's by 1950."
The affordable and available Ford flathead V8 was actually 1932. By 1934 they were rated at 85 HP (and a 100 HP version).

But the true story of the F-head is as follows...

In the late 1940’s, government planners feared that a serious horsepower deficit would develop as the nation began its recovery from WWII. To meet this potential crisis, a top-secret National Horsepower Reserve was established under the auspices of the U.S. Forestry Service and with the cooperation of the Willys Motor Co. Under the plan, small amounts of horsepower were covertly diverted from each new F-head engine, and placed in a secret depository that had been built by the Civilian Conservation Corps inside a hollowed out mountain in a remote area of one of the western states.

Initially, all Jeep engines were included in the program, but flathead L-134 models were subsequently exempted when it was shown that they had absolutely no horsepower to spare.

The program was discontinued in 1968, and over time the existence of the National Horsepower Reserve and the location of the depository were all but forgotten. However, the depository was recently rediscovered. Arrangements are being made to contact the current owners of the Jeep donor engines, and to offer them the right of first refusal on the horsepower originally diverted from their engines.

 

Actually, there were a number of V8's built even before the original L134 of 1926, not to mention some reasonably high hp 6's. The 134's came about because Willys needed a light, economical engine for their new Whippet. The only reason it got the nod over the Ford and Bantam engines in a Jeep is that is was a lot less anemic than either of those offerings.

As for pulling a lot of power out of any of the 134's, it just isn't going to happen with stock parts. Steel or not, that 3 main bearing crank with 2 bolt caps isn't going to be there at something way short of 500hp. It would likely have a very short existance at half of that.

Bottom line is that there isn't anything you can do to them (and still have them last anything close to their normal 60 to 75k rebuild time) to make them run with modern traffic. Yep, maybe even a 100 ponies if well tweaked, but that still isn't going to get the job done. That's about the same kick you get with a mild cam and headers on any post mid 50's V8- unless it happens to be one of the AMC 250/287/327 run.

Adequate for slow speed offroad? To a point. However, the V6's and V8's are a hell of a lot more fun even there. I'm getting close to six decades of wheel time behind most of the Jeep CJ engines options at least through 86. I'm sorry, but in my preference, either of the 134's is at the bottom of the heep. The 225 is near the top of that same heep and IMO, better than the 3 AMC's that followed it.

 

i know there were some 2bbl manifold adapters available for the 134f heads. i had one that went with the 134 i sold that came out of my '66 cj5a.

 

I need to catch up with a friend that races a stock class 4 cyl Jeep in Naples, FL. These have wheels/tires about 5 feet in diameter and about 3 inches wide! (They also run in water from 2 feet deep to around 5' in the sippy-hole). They are only allowed to use the 134 engine, but intake, exhaust, cam, and a few other things are open for modification. I have heard them running at well over 5000 rpm and they are making great horsepower, but I need to find out more to report the details.
These are not for everyday Jeeps, but show what can be done with these engines.
I know that I over-rev'ed by F134 back in the 1970s and broke the crank between #3 and 4, so that is a weak spot!
-Donny

 

Tarry, speaking of longevity, how many runs do you get out of an engine (I assume there is more than one?) in that? Do you completely go through it after each event? Or is that classified information? R)

The only parallel I have is a friend that is into tractor pulls in a big way and seems to me they go through a couple of engines every summer. Ultra buck territory for sure.

 

I've found the F-134's to be very dependable.
The last one I wore out when it flattened a rod bearing at 80'000 miles.
That was partly my own fault because I did not re-size the rods on that rebuild.
But that engine was pretty well wore out anyway. The valves and the camshaft were also going bad.
That engine saw plenty of time at 4000 RPM .
It was frequently used to run down the interstate at 65 MPH. (3200) RPM
But the fact is that I have to run the help out of them simply because they are under powered for my needs.
I'm still running one and have yet another fresh built spare that is in pristine condition.
But I will likely give up on the Hurricane's whenever my Dauntess engines are finnished.
I simply need more power and better MPG.
But for putting around off the road or used on gravel roads they just can't be beat.
Just gotta love that old antique tractor sound.

 

John,

The parameters for a rebuild are based solely on it's needs at the track..........after each run by first looking at the ET slip and the spark plugs I know instantly how good the tune up was. We have a 21 channel data recorder that records everything we have sensors on from the burn out to the end of the run........there is a huge amount of info that is downloaded.......engine speed, clutch pack speed, drive shaft speed, clutch graphs, Pyrometers, vacuum , supercharger boost, oil pressure. timing, voltage, and many others that are all recorded in both time and distance on the race track.........Next I leak all 8 cylinders and record that.........common problem is always detonation even on a good run........If I have a particular cylinder that is leaking more than 20% that's recorded and watched. That could be caused by either and intake or exhaust valve leaking.........but more normally it's ring seal caused by a spike in cylinder temperature and detonation that causes the piston ring lands to pinch the ring and kill the seal........all of these motors are aluminum blocks with steel cylinder sleeves so if one hole continues to have a sealing problem we pull the supercharger, heads, drop the pan and change that complete cylinder out...............normally 40 runs on a set of rods. Pistons may last a little longer if they stay round. Bearings will be changed when apart. Clutch discs maybe a weekend........After every race weekend we normally strip everything down, inspect , re-install and or replace and put it all back together........That's just a brief recap of what goes on.

This form of class racing burning Methanol in comparison is not as extreme as the Nitro methane burning Fuel Dragsters or Funny cars.......they thump those so hard each pass that the motors are stripped and rebuilt each time on the track.......rods, pistons , maybe 4 runs, crankshafts maybe 6-8. They have probably 20 sets of each component in the trailer ready to go in after each run..........like a recycle program. There not inspecting anything,that gets done later........ eight recycled freshed pistons & rods & rings , fresh set of heads, the supercharger may or may not get changed but will soon, and of course the clutch is changed also...........then go make another lap and start over again!