Dauntless 225 Engine Parts Suggestions

Who currently makes a good Dauntless 225 stock grind camshaft ?
All I can find is Melling SBC-8. Like eBay # 301037409882

Who currently makes a good set of 9.0/1 CR pistons ? I need @ .040 0.S.
All I can find is the Silvolite. Like eBay # 271233172171

 

As far as Camshafts go some of the aftermarket guys like Isky, Comp and a few others grind camshafts that are so close to stock that I doubt one would ever notice the difference.

On Pistons...........I've used the Sealed Power line by Federal Mogul ........made in Mexico but that's not news, seems to hold up as good as any I have seen lately.

 

Comp cams cam and sealed power pistons is what I used in my rebuild. Happy, happy, happy.

 

The Comp cam 252 is not a stock grind.
Virtually every change from standard yeilds some plus and some minus.
You guys with Comp Cam 252 experience....
Do you notice any drop of low end torque from that of an otherwise stock standard D-225 ?

From what I gather the Comp cam 252 should add some mid range power increase over that of a stock cam.
Anyone have RPM data on suggested optimum RPM range ?
Also does one run stock VS 644 springs and 1.6 rockers with that cam ?
I already have a set of NOS OEM lifters.
Can I buy the cam only without lifters and springs ?
Who's got the best price on the Comp 252 camshaft only ?

Otherwise I think I may have found an OEM NOS 1357868 camhaft.
Still searching for a good set of .040 OS pistons.

 

Thanks Chuck for your much appreciated input.
Fortunatly I found an OEM GM camshaft.
So I think I'll install that one in this particular engine.
It's my first Dauntless 225 build so it will give me a good solid baseline for future builds.
Everything in it is 100% stock standard except for the overbore.
Even have an OEM NOS crankshaft for it.
Still searching for pistons .......

 

I've got a non scientific hunch that the stock camshaft grind will yeild greater low end torque than the 252 Comp cam.
Can anyone else verify or debunk my hunch ?

Perhaps I should detail what I do know.
I have never seen the D-225 dynomometer charts yet we do know that the Dauntless 225 was fully tested via a dynamometer.
We do know that the standard equipped engine was rated for maximun torque output at 2400 RPM.
Therefore the jeep I'm building is geared to take full advantage of that specific engine velocity under sustained high speed conditions.

That 2400 RPM rating implies that lower and higher crankshaft velocities are less than optimum concerning output efficiency.
All else remaining equal I fully understand that the Comp cam grind will increase the engine efficiency at RPM ranges slightly above 2400.
By the same token the Comp cam grind should theoretically decrease engine efficiency at RPM ranges below 2400.
According to the laws of physics for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Is my understanding correct concerning the stock camshaft vs. the Comp cam ?
Or was the original camshaft design somehow defective meaning not at true optimum efficiency for 2400 RPM ?

 

Another problem I see here is that the Dynamometer curve changes if the carburetor is changed.
For now I definately plan to run the stock Rochester 2GC.
I would expect that GM fully tested the stock cam for optimum performance.
I would be even more concerned about the optimum cam profile if I were to go 4 barrel or EFI.
The only real way to know whats optimum is to change only 1 item at a time and run it on the Dynamometer or else against the stop watch.
No machine to date can outrun the original machine ... the watch !

But come to think of it the original camshaft was never changed (upgraded) from that of the Buick 225 Fireball with it's single barrel carburetor.
So now I just realized that the original camshaft was intended for the single barrel Rochester BD.
And Jeep never upgraded the camshaft profile when they went to the Rochester 2GC.
So it now it seems very likely to me that the Comp cam grind should have a very serious merit.

Of course I'm only here just thinking "outloud" in text online.
Thanks for the feed back Chuck.
It really helps me to think this through in greater depth.

 

Ken,
Do you have the original spec's on the old camshaft? valve timing , & duration etc? If so publish them and well all take a look at the two for comparison sake...........

Working with Buick's or Willys old published numbers as far as torque and Horsepower is concerned I believe they are both somewhat suspect.........235 ft lbs of torque at 2400 rpm.......working the math backwards says that the motor was producing about 107.39 HP at 2400 Rpm's to see that torque number and likewise if you look at the Horsepower side at 4200 RPM's published Horsepower was 160 HP and using the math again would be about 200 ft lbs of torque @ 4200 RPM's...............Not to say that's not possible but I wonder what physical or mathematical method they really used? Engine dyno's back in 1965? I guess?.......Just no way to verify any of this without a stock motor getting tugged on a Dyno somewhere?

 

Terry that's partly it.
Here's the original torque and HP numbers.
The numbers for the 1 barrel Fireball 225 are 225 lb ft of torque at 2400 RPM and 155 HP @ 4400 RPM.
The numbers for the 2 barrel Dauntless 225 are 235 lb ft of torque at 2400 RPM and 160 HP at 4200 RPM.
I have never even once seen the original dynameter chart for the Buick 225.
So all I have to go on are the given Torque and HP numbers.

I'll look for stock cam grind numbers but they are not likely to be available.
Anyone have the Comp cam numbers handy in case I find stock grind numbers to compare with ?

 

Chuck, that links shows camshaft for a Chryster 225.

I think you meant: http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=33&sb=2

Apparently the OEM Dauntless 225 camshaft was originally designed and tested for the Buick 198 Fireball.

 

Ken,

Not much info out there on original Cam Spec's for the 225 Buick.............If we were to use Mellings OEM replacement cam as a base line I was able to find the numbers on the SBC-8 cam you first referenced.......

At .050 Lift. Int duration is 194 cam lift duration .272 Lobe .251 Gross lift w/1.6 rocker is .401 Cam Center line is ground on 112 degrees
At .050 Lift Ex. duration is 194 cam lift duration .283 Lobe .244 Gross lift " " .391 " "


I looked at what Isky , Comp and Schneider Cams had to offer( God, I really did not even know Dave Schneider was still in business! ) ............ The smallest cam out there in the aftermarket performance camshafts industry that is near the SBC-8 cam is probably the Schneider racings little #48-56H camshaft.........( .194 & .204 on duration at .050) valve lift @ .424 & .432 on a 112 degree lobe separation.
THe Comp 252H is: (duration @.050 .206 & .206 valve lift .438 gross lift for both ground on a 110 degree lobe separation.

The reality here is we are trying to pick flydodo out of pepper..........all would react somewhat differently based on the final induction system sitting on top of the heads...............I also went back and looked at the spec's for the 225 Fireball motor in 1964 with a two barrel carb they were 155 HP @ 4400 RPM's and 225 ft lbs of torque @ 2400 RPM's Who knows where Kaiser / Willys found the extra 5 HP and 10 Ft lbs of torque?

Close your eye's and make a choice!

 

I saw some numbers somewhere that gave me suspicions concerning the Melling camshaft.
I suspect that perhaps its not actually the OE cam grind.
I don't have GM part numbers for the 198 V6 camshaft but suspect its the same as the Jeep Dauntless GM part #1357868

I don't believe that the 225 Fireballs ever used a 2 barrel carburetor.
They used a Rochester BD just like the earliest 1965 production Dauntless 225.
The change of carburetors and the intakle manifold explains the small torque and the HP increase.

Exactly without a baseline it's strickly an educated guess.
Chucks experience is non scientific yet it appears to be valid.

 

I've been running the comp 260 for about 9 months now. Seat of the pants only here and I did a complete engine rebuild at the same time. There is no noticeable change in low end torque. Mid and upper range increases are very noticeable. Way better response in the mid range and the upper end really woke up. It pulls hard all the way to 4500 and I've moved my redline to 5000 and am not at all concerned about running it there. Did comps complete kit with lifters and springs (springs come with the flat coil stabilizers). New push rods, rockers, and valves too.

So it may be apples and oranges here, but I really like the set up and can't wait to fuel inject it.

 

The only info i could find, is from an old book i have. The complete book of engines by the editors of Hot Rod magazine, published in 1966. It lists 285-degree opening duration on the intake, 295 degree on the exhaust. lift on both intake and exhaust .401 This was listed for a 225 v-6 with 2 barrel.

 

Reviving the dead.... How's everyone's engine builds holding up? Still satisfied with your cam choices long term? I'm about to begin a 225 build.